Rogue/Ninja Discussion

[Niiro]

If I had to guess its from spinning the camera too quickly after using it, latency causing the target the server receives to be interpreted from the new camera angle.

[Spider-Dan]

Instant mudras for more dps.

Ninjutsu cooldown is still the same (and server validated), right? So where's the exploit?

[Taim Meich]

Ninjutsu cooldown is still the same (and server validated), right? So where's the exploit?

Not spending 1-1.5 GCD on the execution of the ninjutsu improves DPS.

[Elcura]

Not spending 1-1.5 GCD on the execution of the ninjutsu improves DPS.

Haha, generous. 1.5 is bliss.

[Deadgye]

Validate what? If you make it client side then the server has to trust the client. Crafty folks would then just inject packets that said they used XYZ combo, and the server would accept it because of lag compensation, otherwise you'd still get the skill rollback bullshit that's prevalent currently.

I really don't understand how you can't perceive how this works. If the client sends the server packets for something that couldn't have happened, then it rejects them. If it receives packets for something that could have happened, then it accepts them. Even if people injected packets saying they did mudras one, two, and then three, it wouldn't mean shit in terms of exploits because the exact same thing could have been achieved by pressing the buttons normally.

Do you even know what currently happens with mudras if your client doesn't receive any feedback from the servers? It performs the mudras with absolutely zero lag.

Stepping away from this though, since I originally wasn't focusing on mudras being client side at all. What-ninjutsu-you-can-use calculation is currently server side, and that should be client side. Doing so would introduce zero security problems and would eliminate the problem of double-casting ninjutsu.

--

Also that shukuchi problem is clearly from his playing in the inferior standard mode, if he was in legacy he would never have that problem. :3 He moved the location he was placing shukuchi at by moving his camera before the teleport actually started.

[Spider-Dan]

Not spending 1-1.5 GCD on the execution of the ninjutsu improves DPS.

Are you talking about the execution of the mudras, or the ninjutsu? Because ninjutsu execution should be unaffected.

In a version of this game where mudras are unaffected by lag, you could do mudra -> 0.5s -> mudra -> 0.5s -> mudra -> 0.5s -> ninjutsu (with nearly all of that being queued). That isn't "1-1.5 GCD;" it's less than 1 GCD. And the time savings from hacked client-side mudras would be around 1 second (because even with client-side mudras, the server would still have ninjutsu on 0.5s CD after receiving a mudra set).

[Taim Meich]

Are you talking about the execution of the mudras, or the ninjutsu? Because ninjutsu execution should be unaffected.

In a version of this game where mudras are unaffected by lag, you could do mudra -> 0.5s -> mudra -> 0.5s -> mudra -> 0.5s -> ninjutsu (with nearly all of that being queued). That isn't "1-1.5 GCD;" it's less than 1 GCD. And the time savings from hacked client-side mudras would be around 1 second (because even with client-side mudras, the server would still have ninjutsu on 0.5s CD after receiving a mudra set).

I'm comparing the actual situation, which is close to 1 Ninja gcd (2 seconds) in a perfect environment, and more than 1 gcd if there's lag involved and you intentionally delay the execution to not mess it up, with the theoretical scenario where we could inject packets client-side saying "I did this 3 mudras in the correct order, execute huton", thus making the ninjutsu instant and gaining that dps advantage.

[Kiarax]

The whole situation is dumb, they should be instant. People with low latency can squeeze in 3 mudras just shy of a GCD and waste almost no time, people that don't have perfect latency cannot. Who gives a fuck if someone does it instantly, let them so I can actually not give up DPS just because of shitty netcode.

[Arthars]

2.48

The action "Ninjutsu" and "Mudras" has been removed.

New action for "Doton","Futon","Katon","Suiton","Hyoton","Rai ton" and "Fuma Shuriken" has been added.

The end

[Kiarax]

Nah fuck that, I don't want to have to use 7 hotkeys instead of 4.

[Elcura]

Just make NIN completely braindead. That's also a solution! And you realise that Mudras are the only thing keeping your basic rotation as easy and effective as it is on SEs side.

[Corrderio]

IDAF what they do as long as they actually try and fix it. Bad enough when one of my mudras doesn't go off and I throw a shiruken. But it's fucking bullshit when I literally see the animation of the shiruken being thrown, hit another key, but nope... fucking rabbit.

[TheDirtyHobo]

Nah fuck that, I don't want to have to use 7 hotkeys instead of 4.

Luckily there's only 4 ninjutsu ever worth using in real fights.

[Kiarax]

I use Doton and Katon frequently enough that a hotkey would be necessary, admittedly you could make a fair argument for Hyoton and Fuma being worthless but deep down I know one day I will join a fucking terrible T7 farm and have to take over kiting and then me and Hyoton are gonna spend some good times together, even if you can just facetank the fuckers now.

[Seravi Edalborez]

In the whopping 2-3 FL matches I played on NIN, it was surprising how many people seemed shocked that Hyoton existed.

[TheDirtyHobo]

Katon was one of the 4, but I'm specifically talking about current endgame content, i.e. Final Coil. Doton is good for trash/big dungeon pulls, but for Coil fights there's nothing worth using it on over Katon because it either dies too fast to get enough ticks to be worthwhile (Imdugud spawns, blackfires), or is constantly being moved (Bennu respawns). Granted, I'm not fully familiar with t13, maybe it has some use for Gusts.

[Spider-Dan]

I'm comparing the actual situation, which is close to 1 Ninja gcd (2 seconds) in a perfect environment, and more than 1 gcd if there's lag involved and you intentionally delay the execution to not mess it up, with the theoretical scenario where we could inject packets client-side saying "I did this 3 mudras in the correct order, execute huton", thus making the ninjutsu instant and gaining that dps advantage.

1) Ninjutsu would not be "instant," as there would still be a 0.5s cooldown between "here are my 3 mudras" and "execute Ninjutsu."

2) The exact problem being complained about is lag preventing people from executing ninjutsu; input mudras slower and lag problem is solved (as you just said). So either ninjutsu should be speed-limited by real-world execution (which includes lag), or it shouldn't. If it shouldn't, then the gain from cheaters hacking packets is capped at 1.0 seconds per ninjutsu rotation (but non-hackers will be able to get in a ninjutsu between GCDs anyway).

Just for the record: is DPS currently hack-proof otherwise? Because if not, the question of "what can hackers do with it?" seems rather pointless. If hacking NINs can shave 1 second off mudra input downtime but hacking BLMs can, say, do quad Flares, what are we really discussing?

[Taim Meich]

1) Ninjutsu would not be "instant," as there would still be a 0.5s cooldown between "here are my 3 mudras" and "execute Ninjutsu."

2) The exact problem being complained about is lag preventing people from executing ninjutsu; input mudras slower and lag problem is solved (as you just said). So either ninjutsu should be speed-limited by real-world execution (which includes lag), or it shouldn't. If it shouldn't, then the gain from cheaters hacking packets is capped at 1.0 seconds per ninjutsu rotation (but non-hackers will be able to get in a ninjutsu between GCDs anyway).

Yeah, we pretty much agree, but... If Mudras had 0 recast time, wouldn't people that wanted to execute them EXTREMELY fast (since they actually could, remember, 0 recast) still be penalized by the time it takes the server to register the correct mudra order?

[Spider-Dan]

I don't think anyone has said that mudra recast time should be changed to 0. That would just be something that hackers could do if mudras were entirely client-side.

[Sho]

In the whopping 2-3 FL matches I played on NIN, it was surprising how many people seemed shocked that Hyoton existed.

Niggas must not FL on the regular then. Hyoton is the Healers & Bards bane and should be prioritized over other ninjutsu depending.