11/09/14 Update Discussion/Findings

[Sechs]

Why are they bothering with more Survival Guides? They were a really nice idea but feel kinda pointless since after the HP patch that allows us to move between Home Points.

So in this patch only one new HP? Was hoping for one in Outer and Inner Ra'kaznar too =/

[Tarage]

Why are they bothering with more Survival Guides? They were a really nice idea but feel kinda pointless since after the HP patch that allows us to move between Home Points.

So in this patch only one new HP? Was hoping for one in Outer and Inner Ra'kaznar too =/

You can get to outer and inner super quick with the new warp crystal things. Not actual HP crystals, but it's like a 5 minute walk and you don't have to do any reives.

[Sechs]

Sadly I practically still have to log since latest patch, didn't get a chance to experience those new Warp Crystals I saw mentioned =/

[Indi]

Does anyone know anything else about the event? I'm doing it for the costume stuff and the trust but fuck me if this event isn't even more annoying than the halloween one. Maybe I shouldn't be doing it in Windy, because it's next to impossible to collect anything, dodge the NPCs, and manage to make it back in time.

And I have no idea what the "super mystery prize" bullshit from the grab bag is.

Kainstryder's post pretty much details it all. I did it for a few hours the other night, got up to the 500pt bag, but didn't really get anything amazing in terms of items. The gear/some synth mat items all seem to be drops from plant related NMs/mobs throughout the game. Not sure if anything really rare can come from it, I doubt it. Was nice to get a rem's papers here and there though. Don't think I got any gear drops from the 500pt bag so maybe that has something good?

[Spira]

Why are they bothering with more Survival Guides? They were a really nice idea but feel kinda pointless since after the HP patch that allows us to move between Home Points.

So in this patch only one new HP? Was hoping for one in Outer and Inner Ra'kaznar too =/

i suppose for ease of travel to dungeon areas? would be particularly useful for those that dont have BCs in them, like castle oztroja? that one has always been a bit of a pain to reach. more QoL stuff. quite happy for them. hope they extend more to expansion areas.

[Sechs]

Yes but my point is: if they're going to add a book, why not just add a Home Point Crystal and "centralize" in a more homogeneized way the Vana'diel transport system, instead of spreading it through so many different, mottled systems?
It's not that I don't like the book thingie, I found it fantastic when they first added it.

It's just that it makes much less sense now that they could simply add more HPs where they see fit (there's no universal rule that says that HPs can only be added in proximity of BCs, is there?)

[Malithar]

I don't mind it this way. Add too many HPs and it becomes a cluster fuck navigating the menu. Keep HPs for towns/BCs, books for more specific mid-area warps. Not like it's difficult to get to a book anyways, there's one in all three nations now that connect them all.

[sahearniitth]

The problem I have with the numerous warp systems is the inevitable overlap. A lot of the locations they added books to were already reachable via VW warps, Waypoints and OP warps. Many of the home points they added for BC fights were already available via the Tenshudo warp. By adding Home Points and Survival Guides everywhere they are in essence eliminating the value of engaging in activities to unlock said warp points (Outpost Runs, VW progression, Quests for Waypoints, Missions for runes from Adoulin and the like). With the current state of the game where variety is becoming a scarce commodity why would you eliminate the few draws of additional content outside the endgame flavor of the month.

[Malithar]

With the current state of the game where variety is becoming a scarce commodity why would you eliminate the few draws of additional content outside the endgame flavor of the month.

Because of the current state of the game having scraps left over population wise. If you were going to pug something without these warps, there's no surer way to aggravate the group than to say "lol vw warp wuts dat?" "waypoints? huh?" etc. At least with this, whether it de-values the other forms of porting or not, you're more likely to get a group together, go and do the content, and be done, rather than sit around at the BC entrance making the Regain on Karieyh Ring mean something while you wait for someone to get there. Even with HP warps, it still happens, but at least it's not nearly as common as coming across someone who hasn't progressed in VW, touched geomantic fonts, etc.

[sahearniitth]

Meh. By that justification, SE should just gift all players Kogarasumarus or other REM/Ergons, full ideal gear, autocap all jobs/skills so that every player can theoretically fit any role without having to put in any effort and wont hold the group back so you can get stuff done faster.

[Malithar]

Just a lil difference between getting to the BC and getting all the things, but k.

[Hitou]

Meh. By that justification, SE should just gift all players Kogarasumarus or other REM/Ergons, full ideal gear, autocap all jobs/skills so that every player can theoretically fit any role without having to put in any effort and wont hold the group back so you can get stuff done faster.

I don't understand your argument, you still have to go to the places to unlock the books, HP, waypoint, what-ever-the-hell. Are you arguing that everyone should grind out dead content like VW just to unlock warps whose actual purpose was to warp to the battles but were used for convenience after? Where is the effort threshold? Walking to a book or HP the first time is akin to free mythics but Soloing VW so you can use cruor, a currency no one is actively gaining anymore, to get to the same places is akin building a mythic legit?

Just so we are clear, I full cleared VW with my then-active VW shell back when it was relevant content and the warps were nice. I still use them every once and a while like if I want to go to the other entrance of CN. They served their purpose for their time. You're not pissed off no one uses Airships and Chocobo to get from windy to sandy are you?

[Sechs]

Meh. By that justification, SE should just gift all players Kogarasumarus or other REM/Ergons, full ideal gear, autocap all jobs/skills so that every player can theoretically fit any role without having to put in any effort and wont hold the group back so you can get stuff done faster.

Talk about stretching things out lol
You're bringing it too far. What's next, SE playing the game for you so you can sit back and enjoy stuff happening in your screen?

My point was just a practical one.
If you create a system to move fast through locations (wether this is positive or kills exploration etc, let's leave this outside since it's a different topic) I'd much rather have a single one that includes everything from the same menu rather than having a plethora of different ones and each time you have to remember which brings you where and access it from different spots.
In the end it's not too much of a hassle, but what I could've done with a simple click from outside my MH requires me to do that, to move to another position with books, wait for zoning and loading times, walk until I find the second different warping system, access to its menus, navigate through them and then finally select the location I want to move to.
It's seems unnecessarily convoluted to me, there's a lot of steps that could be skipped making the system more straightforward and seamless.

I do agree with the point Malithar made though, with how slow FFXI menus are and with all the on screen max elements display and "next page" issues, that could become quite a hassle just like Malithar said.
Personally between these two different hassles (moving around/zoning/remembering and menu navigation/slow menus) I'd much rather have the latter than the former, but this is kinda personal preference than an objective observation, so I take back my statement and in light of what Malithar showed me.

[Hitou]

Lots of stuff

I hope that "memorizing" books are at dungeon entrances and towns and HP's are at BC entrances and Towns isn't that hard. While HP's are really convenient, the more of them they keep adding the longer the list gets for the menu. It's already pretty huge and I'm sure they'll be adding more HP's as time goes by. As often as I need to go to old dungeons, I'm fine with walking 5 feet to a book, or using a waypoint or rarely a VW warp.

[Sechs]

In the end it's not that big of a deal, I agree with that.
They could have at least merged Ru'lude's waypoint warps system into an "Old world" new category inside Adoulin's Waypoints though :'(

[sahearniitth]

My "argument" per se is that the justification that activities that take minimal effort and help you get acquainted with the world and hone basic skills (navigation, sneaking around) should be foregone so that your participation in pugs is more efficient/easier is basically only a few steps from the argument that levelling/skilling/gearing a job should be foregone to accommodate the lack of players. Currently I see shouts that go on for hours for BRD/WHM/PLD. This is a far bigger inconvenience/pug time sink than someone not having a home point despite the fact that levelling/somewhat gearing/skilling said jobs (or almost any job for that matter) can be done in a few hours in todays FFXI. Should SE let you have said jobs autolevelled so that its no longer an issue.

As far as the REM argument goes, it is arguably a bigger grind but with more and more people having them and certain events becoming restrictive/centered around them, shouldn't SE accommodate those players who don't have time/cant be bothered to make a mythic so they can participate in pug events? While this might sound like a stretch, keep in mind SE DID try to do this, but the backlash was so vicious that they changed their stance, but even so they have been slowly closing the gap for most jobs.

I am ranting now, but basically my point is this. There is content for people to do that has certain rewards that make their life easier or help advance their character. Laziness should not be an excuse to add in alternate "dumbed down" paths to the exact same rewards because that just perpetuates laziness. People are in agreement that if someone cant be bothered to put in the effort to make a Mythic they shouldn't expect to be handed say a Sparks weapon that is comparable even though Mythics are just mindless 40min grinds for a couple months. In the same manner I don't think superfluous content should be added in the name of QOL when there are perfectly reasonable alternatives out there (VW as an example can be mostly solo/duoed with clusters).

[sahearniitth]

In regards to the merging of teleport methods, both Guides and Home Points are already grouped by Region so it wouldn't necessarily add many more pages to the menu/sub (although it would add lines sure) than already exist given how extensive both are to merge them. Then again, is there really a need for 3-4 Home Points per city zone.

[Sechs]

Mythics are just mindless 40min grinds for a couple months.

Hey Spira, you read that? Just do salvo once a day, 40 mins runs and not 100 please, and you'll be done with your mythic in 60 days!!1!1!

Sorry for bringing this out of context
It's not even that far from truth to be fair, if you use the poshack trick.
But I wouldn't go as far as to define the sort of player who can complete a mythic in 60 days or less an "average player"

[sahearniitth]

My bad on that. When I said a couple months I meant more like 4-5ish. If you JUST do Salvage it will take 7 months approx. based on averages with no cheating involved. Minor day to day activities such a VW for merits, random mat sales from pug BC (where you burn said VW merits) and some random luck with other current events (Delve before, Incursion now) will supplement that income. Assuming the Average player plays ~2-3hrs a day (which I guess could be an overestimate) it is feasible to finish in 4-5.

My example of Mythics was extreme but here are some more reasonable examples.
I already pointed out my thoughts on having jobs be autolevelled/skilled (or auto skill with each level). Can take out genkai too since it serves no real purpose based on peoples opinions on outdated content.
Crafting is another aspect of the game that can be a huge time sink when trying to locate/negotiate a synth. Just have people be autocapped on a craft of choice or add in NPCs that will do crafting for you for a fee so that this is no longer an issue.
Add in vendors that sell Questable Scrolls as well as scrolls that currently only drop from mobs. Its too much of a hassle to do quests for them (although I do realize the situation where someone did and sold say Sleepaga 2 10 years ago is a bummer and should probably be addressed somehow other than simply doing the quests on a mule) or in the latter case go farm them off TW mobs.
Do away with the whole merits for KI for HTBCNM system cause who has time to farm merits. If the frequency of the event is an issue put a timer on the BC/KI ala Limbus/Salvage.

[Hitou]

My "argument" per se is that the justification that activities that take minimal effort and help you get acquainted with the world and hone basic skills (navigation, sneaking around) should be foregone so that your participation in pugs is more efficient/easier is basically only a few steps from the argument that levelling/skilling/gearing a job should be foregone to accommodate the lack of players. Currently I see shouts that go on for hours for BRD/WHM/PLD. This is a far bigger inconvenience/pug time sink than someone not having a home point despite the fact that levelling/somewhat gearing/skilling said jobs (or almost any job for that matter) can be done in a few hours in todays FFXI. Should SE let you have said jobs autolevelled so that its no longer an issue.

As far as the REM argument goes, it is arguably a bigger grind but with more and more people having them and certain events becoming restrictive/centered around them, shouldn't SE accommodate those players who don't have time/cant be bothered to make a mythic so they can participate in pug events? While this might sound like a stretch, keep in mind SE DID try to do this, but the backlash was so vicious that they changed their stance, but even so they have been slowly closing the gap for most jobs.

I am ranting now, but basically my point is this. There is content for people to do that has certain rewards that make their life easier or help advance their character. Laziness should not be an excuse to add in alternate "dumbed down" paths to the exact same rewards because that just perpetuates laziness. People are in agreement that if someone cant be bothered to put in the effort to make a Mythic they shouldn't expect to be handed say a Sparks weapon that is comparable even though Mythics are just mindless 40min grinds for a couple months. In the same manner I don't think superfluous content should be added in the name of QOL when there are perfectly reasonable alternatives out there (VW as an example can be mostly solo/duoed with clusters).

Huh? If people are lazy they're lazy. I don't see how multiple warps to a place detracts from character enrichment or whatever you're trying to spin it as. There's probably 0-5 brand new players per server. This is all really old content, if people haven't "experienced" it by now, they're probably never going to. You're not gonna need to "sneak around" in a 75 era dungeon with item lvl gear on. The HP's and books are for convenience. If they're too convenient for you, use the slightly-less-but-still-actually-convenient methods of getting around. Or just walk everywhere. Otherwise you're robbing yourself of seeing the 3 sunsets that will happen while you are on your way there.