Law Enforcement Discussion (Statistics, ideology)

[Nephlite]

An interesting article on the most policed countries in the world. Despite the negativity surrounding the US police forces, we're not even in the top 20 as far as police personnel per citizen.

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data...iced-countries

[Acevalefor]

The problem is in militarization and fucked up policies that lead to bullshit lawsuits and no-indictment decisions that should have never happened. The problem is in self-serving investigative practices when something does go wrong. The problem is with criminals (and even law-abiding people) trying to bait officers into illegal actions. The problem is the fear and loathing of police forces because traffic citations are used as a revenue stream instead of a safety enforcement mechanism. The problem is NOT in the number of officers per capita.

[BaneTheBrawler]

yeah if anything id say we need more cops.

[Acevalefor]

Here's one for the inflammatory news articles:
How many people to Police shoot each year in the US?

[Nephlite]

Here's one for the inflammatory news articles:
How many people to Police shoot each year in the US?

To piggy-back a bit off of this, most of the data involving arrests and officer involved killings can be found on the BJS website: http://www.bjs.gov/

The stats broken down by demographic and type of death can be found here as well. The latest (2013) is found here, and the previous entry is here:

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2228

The data is far from complete. Some states by constitution and court ruling don't have to report, or were exempt from reporting due to certain factors. One reason why New York was exempt for a year or two was for a DOJ review. Some are also backlogged or never reported.

[djzombie]

so... can we discuss this here as well.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3745291.html

Spoiler: show

http://www.statista.com/graphic/1/26...nhabitants.jpg

spoiler for size

you link a graph that doesn't even have the us on it when considering how heavily policed countries on, despite incarcerating more people per capita than any other country. How can both of these be true. The one you posted seems like an arbitrary distinction with no actual data behind it. but there is actual data, so what is the measure they use? How many police per 100,000 people. So why does more police not mean more arrests, and if more police are making less arrests, are those countries really "policed" more simply because they have a larger police force? or is how they're policing, and the laws they're enforcing more important than simply how much manpower there is on the street?

Wouldn't most heavily policed correlate directly to most citizens incarcerated per capita? Explain to me why it doesn't. Then explain to me why we incarcerate more citizens than any other country.

War. On. Drugs.

[Nephlite]

so... can we discuss this here as well.

you link a graph that doesn't even have the us on it when considering how heavily policed countries on, despite incarcerating more people per capita than any other country. How can both of these be true. The one you posted seems like an arbitrary distinction with no actual data behind it. but there is actual data, so what is the measure they use? How many police per 100,000 people. So why does more police not mean more arrests, and if more police are making less arrests, are those countries really "policed" more simply because they have a larger police force? or is how they're policing, and the laws they're enforcing more important than simply how much manpower there is on the street?

Wouldn't most heavily policed correlate directly to most citizens incarcerated per capita? Explain to me why it doesn't. Then explain to me why we incarcerate more citizens than any other country.

War. On. Drugs.

The website: http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data...iced-countries outlines all of the countries as part of the sample. The US is number 22. The website also has the citations listed at the top of the expanded list.

[djzombie]

Yea i saw that, thats how I knew what measure they used for the graph, us is 32. I'm just saying I don't think that number is a real good indication of how much your country is policed.

I think a better metric would be how many people you lock away in steel cages and for what reasons.

[Nephlite]

More per-capita officers for population, probably stricter controls and less individual freedom. US has a pretty large crime index when compared to other countries. More officers, more enforcement, probably better economies, less crime, there's a ton of factors. War on Drugs probably a big contributor, which is why I'm happy at least marijuana is getting decriminalized.

[Mazmaz]

Has Neph discussed what is entailed in the police training he's gone through? Are you trained to remain safe as the top priority as the video claims?

PS. Cop isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs.

[Thunder]

Has Neph discussed what is entailed in the police training he's gone through? Are you trained to remain safe as the top priority as the video claims?

PS. Cop isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs.

Hasn't talked about his training, but it's been discussed that cop's #1 prerogative is keeping themselves safe, ya

I'd like it if the world operated differently, but on the other hand it does kind of make sense... a cop is just a regular person in a shitty job. I don't feel right throwing on top of a person like that a saintly/selfless "put others before you" atmosphere

Idk, it's a pretty shitty situation imo - because america is more diverse than other countries (?) it makes it difficult for some people who get brought up in a certain area, a certain way, have certain experiences, I probably don't have to be explaining this to you lol, etc, to communicate with other cultures. Often times it's white cop vs black man, and white cop doesn't have the social experience to befriend the guy, or at the very least keep it from escalating.

Here's a video/situation I saw someone say it's what police use sometime in training/education. Warning, someone dies here and the audio could be pretty gut wrenching for some people

The officer was 22 years old, wife, 2 kids. First thing I thought of was the officer was an idiot for not having enough empathy and communication skills... but then I realize he's 22 years old, he must have went right into police officer after high school, had a daughter really early on, and I expect him to have the social intelligence to talk down an old man who obviously has problems with authority?

If police officer was a more prestigious job, yeah, not only would training be different, but you'd also get a whole lot more of the "level-headed" people into service. But because it isn't, you need to train according to the lowest common denominator. At least that's how I made peace with it. I'm sure some of the smarter dudes who go into being a police officer have no issues using their social skills and befriending the people they question, charge, arrest, whatever. Worth noting that a lot of these cop-fuck-up stories the cop involved has had issues before and probably isn't the brightest of the bunch

[BerenTebogo]

Isn't that kind of the main problem?

The lowest fucking common denominator has fucking guns and can legally fucking shoot you or choke you for misdemeanors.

[Thunder]

Isn't that kind of the main problem?

The lowest fucking common denominator has fucking guns and can legally fucking shoot you or choke you for misdemeanors.

Ya, I see you here. But what can be done about it? We're in a country with lots of different cultures and one where guns are in our 2nd amendment. Comparing policing the US to policing Germany isn't fair at all

You'll always have guys going to into the police force right out of high school and they literally cannot be expected to be given that much power and THEN be a "give the other cheek" jesus-type OR a socially savvy enough person to get through things with communication. Those type of people gravitate towards other occupations

Without a large amount of money put into it to change the structure of police where it suddenly becomes a prestigious job that regular ol' people can't get into.. I don't really see change happening? There's no money in policing (unless you can shake down criminals for their shit) so turning to capitalism to privatize it can't happen and I don't see the government putting in the effort

It's sort of the same problem with teaching in the US. Except you do get a bunch more charitable/saintly people in the teaching profession than police, go figure lol

[Mazmaz]

stuff

So you, the "approach everything scientifically in every thread" guy, in a thread about statistics and data on law enforcement, just made the biggest emotional appeal post? That was the only purpose of the video right?

Why is it ok to expect other civil servants, like fire fighters, to put others' safety ahead of their own, and yet with cops, who are legally allowed to wield and use deadly force, we can keep a straight face and say "well, as long as you're staying safe".

Do I think cops should be paid better and it be a more prestigious job, etc.? Sure. But that doesn't mean that if it's not, we should be ok with innocent civilians being killed. Cops sign up for the job, knowing that they're putting their own safety on the line to serve and protect innocents. Innocent civilians are literally that, innocent bystanders who didn't sign up for anything. So I think I'm comfortable saying that I'd rather one police officer dies instead of one innocent civilian.

[Thunder]

So you, the "approach everything scientifically in every thread" guy, in a thread about statistics and data on law enforcement, just made the biggest emotional appeal post? That was the only purpose of the video right?

Why is it ok to expect other civil servants, like fire fighters, to put others' safety ahead of their own, and yet with cops, who are legally allowed to wield and use deadly force, we can keep a straight face and say "well, as long as you're staying safe".

Do I think cops should be paid better and it be a more prestigious job, etc.? Sure. But that doesn't mean that if it's not, we should be ok with innocent civilians being killed. Cops sign up for the job, knowing that they're putting their own safety on the line to serve and protect innocents. Innocent civilians are literally that, innocent bystanders who didn't sign up for anything. So I think I'm comfortable saying that I'd rather one police officer dies instead of one innocent civilian.

It isn't an emotional appeal post. It's a, "these kids going into the force cannot be expected to be held to the standards you want them to be held to" post

Listen, your "I'd rather one police officer dies instead of one innocent civilian" doesn't fall on deaf ears, I get that, and I wish it were like that. But how do we get there? That's gotta be absolute KEY in this discussion, right? All of your, mine, and every one else's good wishing and praying is worth nothing

I'm coming it from a realistic point of view.. it's a government job, so there's no fire of competition to make it better, it's a government job so money is going to be uber tight, it's a job with a very low barrier of entry, and it's a job that gets a lot of "cool" media coverage in cartoons/shows like csi/movies like bad boys/etc for kids and youngadults. What kind of people do you expect to get the job as is?

I can't come up with a solution to the problem, but I'd be super excited to read about yours. srs.

[Melena]

Isn't that kind of the main problem?

The lowest fucking common denominator has fucking guns and can legally fucking shoot you or choke you for misdemeanors.

What's your opinion of lowest common denominator? Is it education, age, experience? A lot of agencies won't even look at you unless you are 21+ with an AA or Military experience. The academy for the county I worked for that finished in October paired a few thousand applicants down to about 40. Since we have such a huge training center, a lot of other cities pay to send their recruits through our academy. They had between all the other agencies + their own recruits over a hundred people in the academy, and at least twenty % flunked out. The academy before that several people got kicked for trying to cheat a test.

I know every agency is different, but I really wonder about the training standards for a lot of places. It really seems like they only do the bare minimum P.O.S.T. requirements or they are in such dire straights to hire more police they are more lenient. What really scares me though is the academy for the County I worked at, they had such high standards and thus such a high failure rate, other cities who were having their recruits flunk out were getting pissed and saying we are too harsh.

[noblemountain]

It varies so wildly. Working as private security, I have seen a ton of great guys and gals with great attitudes that looked fit enough to do their job...I have also seen several tons (haha) of obese cops that make me laugh my ass off and wonder how they pass fitness tests. It isn't just the fitness levels that are the problem, it's the attitude, which is night impossible to test for in any real way. Psych evals fall way short in determining anything, it falls to the other officers in the field to regulate their peers...and you can imagine how much that happens on any real level. (insert Neph comment about everyone he knows does it all the time)

[Acevalefor]

I don't think attitude would be difficult to evaluate. Everyone in any workplace knows which of their co-workers have a bad attitude. If you don't know who it is, it is probably you. With it being that easy for the average person to identify the troublemakers, why couldn't cops do the same?

[quannum]

Something was recently in the news saying, im paraphrasing, 75% of cop complaints/violence comes from cops with only a high school education.

googled it..

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ice-safer.html

“Officers with only high school educations were the subjects of 75% of all disciplinary actions. Officers with four-year degrees accounted for 11% of such actions.”

[Tyche]

I don't white knight terrible medical decisions by medical providers, why does neph expend so much energy white knighting the mouth breathers of his profession. Idgi.