Law Enforcement Discussion (Statistics, ideology)

[Acevalefor]

If this account is accurate, i'm tempted to agree. Who knows if it is though..

Herein lies the problem. Police reports (in all of the current high-profile stories, not just this one) cannot be trusted any more than witness accounts right now. We know that officers involved have a vested interest in covering their ass, and we know that witnesses have a selfish interest in running their mouths for notoriety, or just plain gossip. How do we fix it?

[Melena]

If their threats are realistic and imminent (for example, if they have a gun in their hand), do anything you have to do to stop them. Otherwise, put them in handcuffs, and take them to a hospital.

Yeah, a crazy person waving a knife around, yea you are really just going to just tackle and handcuff them. I am so glad you don't work in any form of emergency services cause you would wind up having your funeral publicly announced in a newspaper one month into your job.

[hey]

Yeah, a crazy person waving a knife around, yea you are really just going to just tackle and handcuff them. I am so glad you don't work in any form of emergency services cause you would wind up having your funeral publicly announced in a newspaper one month into your job.

Because the only tools you have to deal with someone with a knife is a gun and tackling them.

[Nephlite]

Because the only tools you have to deal with someone with a knife is a gun and tackling them.

Knives are deadly force threats for a reason. They can easily kill you. You respond to lethal force with lethal force. How is that concept not clear?

[Nephlite]

Here's another knife video. Keep in mind, the one with the knife already stabbed a few people prior to the NYPD getting there, and this was a clean cut EDP.

[quannum]

This Is How UK Police Stop Someone With A Knife

http://thedailybanter.com/2014/08/uk...someone-knife/

“Certainly a Taser is an option that’s available to the officers,” said Dotson. “But Tasers aren’t 100 percent. So you’ve got an individual with a knife who’s moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, ‘shoot me now, kill me now.’ Tasers aren’t 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer…In a lethal situation, they used lethal force.”

There’s a certain logic to that, and it’s very easy to criticize the police if you’ve had zero experience working in dangerous situations, as they do on a daily basis. They have an incredibly tough job and have to make split second decisions that could be a matter of life and death (in the most literal sense).


But how do other police forces around the world deal with knife wielding attackers? Do they resort to the same lethal tactics when presented with a potential threat? Let’s look at the UK, a nation where the police (in most cases) do not carry firearms.

[Nephlite]

I commend them for what they do, which is a pretty hard job. None of that you just saw in those videos is training. It's about doing what you can do with what you have, and lacking the support of your government to be able to deal with these threats in a reasonable manner as judged by you, a person.

Nevertheless, look how many officers it took for these incidents. There's more officers on the second incident than entire police forces in some jurisdictions the US. How many people died, or were injured before the officers arrived on any number of these incidents with the UK police? How many UK police? It's nice to have such a small area to police with so many officers. That's definitely not something you can easily get away with in the US.

Additionally, notice the lethal force options that are still there.

[kuronosan]

Support of the government? You seriously must not know anything about the UK.

[quannum]

I commend them for what they do, which is a pretty hard job. None of that you just saw in those videos is training. It's about doing what you can do with what you have, and lacking the support of your government to be able to deal with these threats in a reasonable manner as judged by you, a person.

Nevertheless, look how many officers it took for these incidents. There's more officers on the second incident than entire police forces in some jurisdictions the US. How many people died, or were injured before the officers arrived on any number of these incidents with the UK police? How many UK police? It's nice to have such a small area to police with so many officers. That's definitely not something you can easily get away with in the US.

Additionally, notice the lethal force options that are still there.

So you agree that people, EDP as you call them, with knives don't necessarily need to be murdered by a competent police force? awesome.

[Melena]

So you agree that people, EDP as you call them, with knives don't necessarily need to be murdered by a competent police force? awesome.

What you completely overlooked is in one of those videos, that would be the entire police force in some communities. So what you are saying is that they should say fuck any other issues, just go all korean zug zug zerg the machete threat and hope no one gets killed. Got it.

[Blubbartron]

What you completely overlooked is in one of those videos, that would be the entire police force in some communities. So what you are saying is that they should say fuck any other issues, just go all korean zug zug zerg the machete threat and hope no one gets killed. Got it.

Fuck any other issues, such as issuing minor moving violation tickets to bring in revenue? We don't live in a post-apocalyptic universe like Judge Dredd where cops are dealing with violent criminals 100% of the time. In the U.S., it's probably more like 3% of the time, and that's being generous I feel.

[Petitssk]

Fuck any other issues, such as issuing minor moving violation tickets to bring in revenue? We don't live in a post-apocalyptic universe like Judge Dredd where cops are dealing with violent criminals 100% of the time. In the U.S., it's probably more like 3% of the time, and that's being generous I feel.

You know what they say about statistics.

Even if that were the case, I don't really think it would be a good idea to gather entire police forces to deal with a threat consisting of a single person, as that would severely hamper reactions to calls at, for instance, the other end of the town. There's a whole lot of room for emergencies between "violent criminals" and "minor moving violation tickets to bring in revenue". I, for one, would hate to spend ages waiting for help to arrive because a single guy who does not comprehend "Drop the weapon" suddenly requires the attention of 20 police officers.

I don't know how much contact you've had with the police, but trust me, if you need them, you're grateful they'll arrive in, at most, five minutes.

[Pirian]

Fuck any other issues, such as issuing minor moving violation tickets to bring in revenue? We don't live in a post-apocalyptic universe like Judge Dredd where cops are dealing with violent criminals 100% of the time. In the U.S., it's probably more like 3% of the time, and that's being generous I feel. And by feel, I mean I base it on absolutely nothing.

ftfy. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

More like 11.87% of all crime is violent. You're off by a magnitudefactor of about 4

[Nephlite]

Support of the government? You seriously must not know anything about the UK.

The government does not support their police force. Talking with some of them makes me feel my own problems with policing here in the states are minor compared to the issues they deal with.

So you agree that people, EDP as you call them, with knives don't necessarily need to be murdered by a competent police force? awesome.

Murder is a pretty strong word. Justified killing is better.

And yes, sometimes, there's nothing you can do. However, if you have an alternative, I would like to see you attempt to do so.

Additionally, you speak in absolutes, as if every EDP with a knife is killed by the police here in the US. For every one that is killed, try to make an argument for the hundreds that aren't, and safely taken in to custody. It's only when someone dies is it an issue, and it's easy to Monday Morning Quarterback and say "Things could have been different." Well of course! There's always room for improvement. Knee jerk and screaming brutality is not the case, as you're putting an unfair generalization on the dynamics of the situation. What's reasonable to you, may not in fact be reasonable to someone else. And that's okay, because the only thing you need to do is prove the officer was in reasonable fear of his life or another.

[Blubbartron]

ftfy. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

More like 11.87% of all crime is violent. You're off by a magnitude of about 4

You can't jump straight from how much crime is violent to how many officers are dealing with violent crime. A lot of these counted statistics are reported violent crimes that didn't have any police action until after it was already over.

[kuronosan]

So how does the UK not support its officers?

[Nephlite]

So how does the UK not support its officers?

From what I'm hearing, lack of pay, lack of a comprehensive investigative system, morale is in the toilet, discrepancies in management styles, the ones who are getting in to fights (aforementioned video's) and getting the shit kicked out of them are pushing for firearms, which has been denied multiple times despite the alerts for terrorist attacks, and they're even getting denied the use of Tasers for the regular street officers. Force usage in their department is judged by a tribunal that usually recommends the officer is fired for small infractions (no support). Morale is a big one that's causing a lot of the newer officers to resign before they finish training. It's a pretty big issue.

[Thunder]

ftfy. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

More like 11.87% of all crime is violent. You're off by a magnitude of about 4

When someone says, "off by magnitude x" isn't it commonplace to be talking about x factors of 10? "Order of Magnitude"? So, magnitude of 4 would be x10000 off of your answer. He was off by a magnitude of 1. If you still wanna make it look egregious you could of have said off by a factor of 4

Sry4 offtopic and nitpick, but I think it's cool to know

[NynJa]

What you completely overlooked is in one of those videos, that would be the entire police force in some communities. So what you are saying is that they should say fuck any other issues, just go all korean zug zug zerg the machete threat and hope no one gets killed. Got it.

I dont see how that could be an issue at all:

"Hi 911, yeah, theres something going on at the western part of town, send all cops immediately"
*goes to rob bank on east end of town*

That wont happen.

[hey]

"Things could have been different." Well of course! There's always room for improvement.

Glad we agree, i hope now you can stop defending their big mistakes now.

Also, why did all the pro-police people suddenly start talking about taking guns from cops in the usa? No one is suggesting that.