Law Enforcement Discussion (Statistics, ideology)

[Pirian]

Sorry, I should have specified that people (not necessarily me) are using the data to say blacks are more violent than whites based on the crime statistics per-capita. I agree with you, it's erroneous, but it's another side of the argument that people are using.

I'm a big-picture guy. I don't see things from one angle. I like to look at everything. And yes, I know, using that example is a clearly shitty way to push a political agenda, but it can still be taken at face value if you dive in to it and think to yourself "I can see where they're coming from."

Yeah, I know you weren't disagreeing with me. I'm simply saying that even though the colloquial "they" are using the data to push that point, the data doesn't actually support them in the way they are using it, and it is very easy to, and one should, discredit them on the basis of such, and I thought that this was a point you missed so I expanded upon it.

We're in agreement, except we have different conclusions based upon how we're interpreting each other.

You're doing a better job of throwing my own argument back at me, which is what I'm trying to do when people say there's only the "racism" aspect of this issue. I should have you be my spokesperson.

I'm really not here to argue one side or the other, and I really haven't been. I simply pipped up because I had a question towards how you were referring to the data, because all I care about is misrepresentation of data.

[Nephlite]

Like I said, you got the point across better than I did.

[Therin]

Whatever you say broski.



This. There's still an inherent risk when using less lethal, and the fact that Taser use isn't more stressed is kind of a shame. However, that in itself presents another problem with cruel and unusual punishment, along with that chance someone can die from a Taser strike (though it is very, very low).

Also tasers are pretty much useless right now in the winter, the barbs are approximately 9mm long, so if you're wearing more than one layer of clothing there's a very high chance (90%+) that you won't get hit with both barbs. There's also the fact that they're useless against drugged people.

Not that you should be shooting unarmed or non-threatening people with your gun, but the taser is not a self-defense replacement for a firearm.

[Thunder]

How's a taser useless against drugged people?

I've seen a couple people say that... and it just doesn't make sense to me.

Taser takes advantage of the fact that our nervous system is controlled by action potentials (difference in charge between membrane.. or voltage) and if the value gets crossed, that nerve sends an "activating" signal to whatever. Here it's muscles.. there's really no "willpower" to save you from a taser forcing all of your muscles to contract

So what gives?

Can't find good info on it either. Admittedly I took only a few minutes to look it up now and last time (neph) said it but so far I've found sites saying it works against the drunk/drugged unlike pepper spray/gun(lol) and others that say your stuff

[Nephlite]

Depends on the substance but, different drugs can override the neuromuscular stun of the electric shock. Drugs like PCP that can alter the chemical balances of the CNS can also cause it to be ineffective. Like, it works, but the body powers through the stun so it appears to be ineffective.

[kuronosan]

How's a taser useless against drugged people?

I've seen a couple people say that... and it just doesn't make sense to me.

Taser takes advantage of the fact that our nervous system is controlled by action potentials (difference in charge between membrane.. or voltage) and if the value gets crossed, that nerve sends an "activating" signal to whatever. Here it's muscles.. there's really no "willpower" to save you from a taser forcing all of your muscles to contract

So what gives?

Can't find good info on it either. Admittedly I took only a few minutes to look it up now and last time (neph) said it but so far I've found sites saying it works against the drunk/drugged unlike pepper spray/gun(lol) and others that say your stuff

Action potentials are governed by electric forces, which drugs can inhibit or excite. The right drug in the system can reduce action potential response to where taser juice doesn't really add anything.

[Dimmauk]

So what type of non lethal approach do you take against someone on PCP?

[Nephlite]

So what type of non lethal approach do you take against someone on PCP?

Non-lethal would be trying to reason with a leaf blowing in the wind, or a brick on the sidewalk.

Less lethal would be to try to dogpile the person, which requires a shit ton of officers. Of course, if you have the officers to spare, you want to try to cordon off the area to minimize risk to bystanders and move through the less-lethal options. Start with a Taser (we don't have them, only ERT has some), then spray, and finally, try to use empty-hand control techniques.

If all fails, just wait them out. Eventually, they crash, and you can easily subdue them. Once they become a threat? Well, there's only two options: dead, or put in to a state worse than death. That risk is compounded a hundred fold if you go hands on.

In the end, lot's of officers and lots of patience. I've only seen one that we had to use lethal force on, but fortunately, he lived. The other 10-15 were pretty much beaten in to submission or a thousand guys jumped on them to hold them down.

By the way, peerless hinged handcuffs can be broken easily. Just a thought.

[Thunder]

Action potentials are governed by electric forces, which drugs can inhibit or excite. The right drug in the system can reduce action potential response to where taser juice doesn't really add anything.

Might be beyond what I want to learn to understand this now but... if that's true, how does a person still retain functionality? Like, if the taser can't activate the muscle contractions, how can their brain do it? Is it wrong to think of the brain-nerve-muscle as a modular circuit? And then the taser just circumvents the brain and does taser-nerve-muscle. That's how I'm thinking of it, is that wrong?

I can get behind drugs affecting the different chemical responses between synapses and that can change action potentials.. but if the taser gets affected by it how's the brain not get affected by it and fail to control movement?

[kuronosan]

How's a taser useless against drugged people?

I've seen a couple people say that... and it just doesn't make sense to me.

Taser takes advantage of the fact that our nervous system is controlled by action potentials (difference in charge between membrane.. or voltage) and if the value gets crossed, that nerve sends an "activating" signal to whatever. Here it's muscles.. there's really no "willpower" to save you from a taser forcing all of your muscles to contract

So what gives?

Can't find good info on it either. Admittedly I took only a few minutes to look it up now and last time (neph) said it but so far I've found sites saying it works against the drunk/drugged unlike pepper spray/gun(lol) and others that say your stuff

Drugged people have a higher threshold for pain because their receptors are numbed.

It's not that it's ineffective, they just don't feel the pain. It's like an adrenaline rush.

The taser is still an alternating current that relies on a complete circuit to activate. The shock is enough to cause total contraction of all muscles (like tetany) but if the muscles are being excited enough by chemical stimulus sometimes the person keeps moving and has time to disconnect the circuit or overcome the refractory period so that the volts hit at the wrong time and the muscles can't contract (they're already contracted and thus ignore any further action potentials until the refractory period is over).

[Thunder]

I remember learning about refractory periods lol. Totally get it as much as I wanted to, thanks man

[Priran]

Drugged people have a higher threshold for pain because their receptors are numbed.

It's not that it's ineffective, they just don't feel the pain. It's like an adrenaline rush.

The taser is still an alternating current that relies on a complete circuit to activate. The shock is enough to cause total contraction of all muscles (like tetany) but if the muscles are being excited enough by chemical stimulus sometimes the person keeps moving and has time to disconnect the circuit or overcome the refractory period so that the volts hit at the wrong time and the muscles can't contract (they're already contracted and thus ignore any further action potentials until the refractory period is over).

I would think that has more to do with channel blocking and inhibition by interneurons. Skeletal muscle operates as separate motor groups within the whole muscle so it's unlikely the whole muscle would be in a refractory period at the same time, and it doesn't have a very long one to begin with. Refractory period is more of a concern with cardiac muscle.

[kuronosan]

True. I'd be interested to see if that's the main reason for taser deaths.

[Nephlite]

True. I'd be interested to see if that's the main reason for taser deaths.

A lot of them are because of acid buildup in the muscles during high intensity situations that kill the suspect. It's called Excited Delirium and has been the cause of a lot of in-custody deaths with Tasers and whatnot.

[hey]

A lot of them are because of acid buildup in the muscles during high intensity situations that kill the suspect. It's called Excited Delirium and has been the cause of a lot of in-custody deaths with Tasers and whatnot.

At least according to cops, and only cops.

[Nephlite]

At least according to cops, and only cops.

There's plenty of research that indicates it's a real condition, it's just in it's infancy stage of understanding to put exactly what triggers it or what the exact cause of it is. There's an article that touches on how limited our understanding of the condition is, but it attributes to a small percentage of deaths and accounts for the portion of Taser failure that is unexplained when conditions are optimal.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...ic_excuse.html

[Priran]

At least according to cops, and only cops.

It makes sense, that's basically the mechanism of shock following blood loss and reperfusion injury following a stroke or transplant.

[Nephlite]

It makes sense, that's basically the mechanism of shock following blood loss and reperfusion injury following a stroke or transplant.

The way it was explained to me, is when you exert that much energy whether you're on drugs or you're fighting with the police, your heart rate being so high it puts so much stress on your heart, the acid in your blood from exerting that energy essentially can't clear out fast enough and gets pumped in to your heart and brain, and then submission tactics limiting your bodies movement and restricting airflow is all compounded to cause the death.

That's why it's so important not to put pressure on the chest when subduing a subject and to allow them to sit up and breathe normally after the struggle so they don't die. That's assuming the guy doesn't fight when he's on the ground, of course.

[kuronosan]

At least according to cops, and only cops.

Excessive contraction of the muscles would indeed release intense and possibly even fatal levels of lactic acid. The turnover would then generate carbonic acid in the blood.

The body compensates for the decrease in pH by increasing respiration to release the acid and also by releasing buffers. When the kidneys can't clear it and the heart is at a stand still the person will undoubtedly suffocate.

[Restrat]

quick correction: increase in acid would lead to a decrease in pH, which the body would compensate for by increasing respiration