Street Fighter V: A Preliminary Thread

[Spider-Dan]

I look forward to a definition of the word "competitive" that is convoluted enough to allow SF4 to not clearly lose.
I imagine it's going to be some BS like "it has to be a game with online lobbies" along with "it has to be a game more than 2 years old".

[JeanClaudVanDamme]

I look forward to a definition of the word "competitive" that is convoluted enough to allow SF4 to not clearly lose.
I imagine it's going to be some BS like "it has to be a game with online lobbies" along with "it has to be a game more than 2 years old".

Jesus, I knew you'd be off the mark, but not THIS badly.

The definition of the greatest competitive game is easy.

It means exactly that. On a COMPETITIVE level, as in tournament setting, COMPETITION.

SF4 (USF4, really) took SF to a level no previous SF ever took, on a COMPETITIVE LEVEL.

This means exactly what you think it means, to pretend otherwise is being disingenuous.

This meant SF4 had the biggest pool of competitive player, the most talented players the FG genre had to offer, playing SF on a skill level never previously achieved by any other fighting game, period. SF4 elevated SF fundamental play to a new level.

Let's talk about the pool of actual COMPETITIVE player. SF2 sold more, nobody can deny that. But SF4 was played COMPETITIVELY by a far wider audience, and this isn't debatable.

SF4 was the first truly world wide COMPETITIVE SF game. This is evident in the top players and where they come from, the different countries that has won EVO, and the amount of INTERNATIONAL majors taking place WORLDWIDE.

You can harp on and on about how other fighting games sold more. It's a terrible fucking point, and a dishonest one at that.

SF2 sold more. Where was the major international tournaments that had all the elite talents from all around the globe? Where? None to be found. Did Japan's best ever faced America's best? NO. Was there ever even a world champ crowned? NO.

Nobody gives a fuck about Tomo Ohira or Thomas Osaki, because neither guy did anything on a world stage because nobody gave enough of a fuck about SF2 to wan to determine who was the world's best in SF2.

MKX sold 5 million copies. You couldn't get more than 1000 of them to attend EVO. AND it's currently dead last on the Charity Drive to make the EVO 2017 cut.

Sales does not equal = being played competitively by more people.

Now let's look at the TALENT.

No previous SF has ever drawn the sheer amount of elite FG players into one game the way SF4 did.

Previous SF/fighting games have always been played exclusively by groups of players that rarely, if ever, diverged out into other fighting games.

SF2 players played SF2 and hated ST. ST players only played ST and hated Alpha. Alpha guys hate everything that doesn't have Vism. 3rd Strike cult refuses to touch anything other than 3rd Strike. This went on for years.

For some magical reason, SF4 managed to draw the absolute elite from all those fighting games. No other fighting game had the talents drawn into it the way SF4 had.

4 of the five Japanese gods played it (more so than any previous SF, being tied only with Vampire Savior). Daigo, Haitani, Tokido, Sako played from start right til the very end. Then you had KOF gods Xiaohai, Dakou. Virtual Fighter gods, Fuudo, Itazan. MVC gods, Justin Wong, ChrisG, Fchamp, Sanford. GG players like Nemo, RF, Dogura. 3rd Strike elites Momochi and MOV. The list goes on and on.

The player talents you had vying for the title of best SF4 player in the world dwarfs pretty much every single other fighter, ever. It literally had the creme de la creme of FG talents all going up against each other.

Which brings me back to the laughable competition of SF2. Tomo Ohira gets the title of greatest SF2 player in the world.... without ever actually having to compete against a foreign talent. It's a fucking joke to suggest both games had the same level of fighting game talent.

Which brings me to my last point, the LEVEL OF PLAY and how it got elevated to a level never before seen from any previous SF.

It was only natural that the level of SF fundamental skill would get elevated due to the sheer amount of old and new FG talents that SF4 took in.

The footsies, the execution, the spacing, the zoning, poking, defense, offense, every aspect of fighting game reached a level I didn't even think existed.

Nobody in any other fighting games from the past displayed:

Cleaner footsies in their game than Momochi's footsies in SF4.
Master the art of zoning more beautifully than Bonchan with Sagat.
Was as lame and defensive as Dieminion's Guile.
Mastered spacing and fireball traps than Daigo's Ryu.

This is just the fundamental side of SF that was taken to the next level.

This list goes on and on. SF4 players simply mastered, understood their character, and took it to a level rarely seen in the past. The only exceptions I can think of that would be on this level would be Kuroda's Q in 3rd Strike, or Makoto's P groove Kyo in CVS2, or Sako's Bulletta in VS.

On the character specialty side, once again I have yet to see old players playing their character to the level that SF4 players played theirs. OctoChun's Chun, Shooting D's Ryu, Muteki and Kurahashi's Guile, D44BAS' VAkuma, MOV's Chun, K.O's Yun, RX's Urien. None of these guys are as impressive as the way Bonchan elevated Sagat, the way Smug elevated Dudley, the way Xian elevated Gen, the way Poongko elevated Seth, etc.,

Which brings me to my final, final point as to why the title of best SF/FG player in the world was simply not only more accurate with SF4, but more prestigious than ever before.

As mentioned, SF4 was truly the very first WORLD WIDE SF. And as such, the skill needed to win was simply more demanding.

For the first time ever, you were being watched and studied by your opponents all around the world, thanks to youtube, recordings, and replays, etc., etc., The world simply took SF4 competition more seriously.

Infiltration revolutionized the game with his note keeping of top player's habits on his phone and had a personal coach with him during his most dominant SF4 run. SF was for the first at at THIS level of seriousness.

"save that shit for the nationals" was no longer a thing. The very fact that it WAS a thing just demonstrates how fucking low the level of play was in the old days. Gimmicks weren't going to get you wins. Broken game mechanics weren't going to get you wins. Stupid fraudulent infinites weren't going to get you wins.

To excel at SF4, you had to have one of more of the following abilities: footsies, spacing, zoning, character knowledge, PLAYER KNOWLEDGE, frame data, match up knowledge that runs into the hundreds due to the insanely large roster of the most VARIED STYLES OF CHARACTERS EVER.

SF4(USF4) is simply the most honest, purest, and greatest COMPETITIVE SF to date.

It isn't even a debate because you don't even have a fucking case for any other previous SF. They were either fraudulent due to shitty game mechanics/design, or it lacked the world wide competition needed to elevate its play.

ST is the closest thing, and even then, it's a mile behind.

It's as simple as that.

[JeanClaudVanDamme]

Forgot one crucial point: The entire reason SF4 was even allowed to be elevated to that new level by the player base was because it was simply the best designed SF ever. The most complex game with the deepest, most varied cast of characters, and the LEAST AMOUNT OF FRAUDULENT BULLSHIT.

The game allowed for more styles of play, more character expression, more offensive and defensive options, higher executional ceiling than any previous SF.

One simply cannot polish a turd into a diamond. It has to be a gem in the first place. And that's what SF4 is: a fucking gem in a pool of turds.

[JeanClaudVanDamme]

It's precisely what I wrote above that SF4 managed to become the first and only SF game that's had 7 years straight of success in the competitive spotlight.

The game gained more viewership and entrants year after year, even in its 7TH year as the main competitive game at EVO.

SF2 can't hold a fucking candle to that.

Gun to all your heads, none of you would choose watching a 3 day event of high level competitive SF2 over SF4. Please stop with that nonsense.

You'll be on the edge of your seat, biting your nails, hearts racing, cheering for your favorite player, and cussing out Infiltration's entire extended family, as you enjoy the greatest display of SF skills that is SF4. Please belie' dat.

[Deejay]

God damn I miss SF4


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[Damane]

byyour definitionevery non JP made Fighter isnt competitiv necause a large chunk of competitiv asian players dont give a fuck about NA fighting games. Hm... in that regard SFV is a very competitiv game

and SF4 was more fraudulent then V. unvlockabels? Some chars revolved around getting that one knockdown lol.

[Spider-Dan]

If we don't care about sales, and we do care about variety of international tournament size and success, SF5 is already the greatest "competitive" fighting game ever. The entirety of your argument is "look at the tournaments" and SF5 is bigger than SF4 was. Your only argument against SF5, from that perspective, is "it's boring and I'd never want to watch it" - the same kind of argument you make for SF4 over ST - which is like, your opinion, man.

Furthermore, there is a glaring problem with your argument. The rather obvious reason why you keep referring to "7 years of SF4" and not a specific game is because every version of SF4 is immediately thrown in the trash and forgotten the moment a new version came out. The day SSF4 came out, vanilla died. The day AE came out, SSF4 died. The day USF4 came out, AE died.

So when we talk about "7 years of SF4," what you are really talking about is 7 years of 4 different games. In the specific sense of games and not series, ST, 3S, and MVC2 all kick the crap out of any version of SF4, all of which have lasted for at most 2 years before everyone was happy to move on. I mean, look at USF4's thriving scene today.

And finally, this absolute nonsense:

SF2 players played SF2 and hated ST. ST players only played ST and hated Alpha. Alpha guys hate everything that doesn't have Vism. 3rd Strike cult refuses to touch anything other than 3rd Strike. This went on for years.

John Choi, Alex Valle, Jeff Schaefer, Graham Wolfe, Justin Wong, Daigo, Ohnuki, Tokido, Sako, etc. You literally could not be more wrong if you tried. Mike Watson had an MVC2 team named after him and you're trying to tell me players only played one game before SF4? GTFO.

Fundamentally, the argument you are making can be boiled down to "there were more and bigger tournaments for SF4." That argument leads directly to the bitter conclusion that despite your protests, SF5 is actually the best "competitive" fighting game ever made. I imagine that's why you didn't mention that game ONCE in your enormous essay.

[Cjskater]

I'm not a SF5 hater. I enjoyed watching AE/USF4 streams a lot more, sure, but I could also probably say the same about early vanilla SF4 if I watched it. I miss the tense competition, my main chicken (guy), and FADC but besides that I'm not too bummed. I see hope in SF5 still. We just recently found microstep combos didn't we? I can't fucking do Mika's to save my life but I know if I saw that shit in a match I wouldn't pretend it was nothing. I've got a couple of Mika techmonsters youtubes pulled up and its been new tech every day just about, shit I didn't see at all in S1 because all they did with Mika was rope throw into corner into mixups. There's hope on the horizon, imo, no need to doom and gloom yet.


I posted all that just so I could post this sort of off topic thing:
https://twitter.com/inoVSVSVSVSVSVS/...85930696044548

ino, a labmonster, was blocked by SF5's chief director. His timeline is pretty entertaining as well, if anyone wants to read about some shit related to the patch notes (mostly english).

Might as well include where all of it came from:
http://toolassisted.github.io/LOL/

1P vs 2P characters on the left and buttons at the top

[Jefe]

Nah, SFV has been fucked since its inception. It's gaem over, mang, gaem over. Best thing Crapcom can do is still support that pos (bc ethics); go back to the drawing board and study why SFIV was so great and better its formula. Now if y'all'd excuse me, I have RE7 to play, which is fucking amazing, btw.

[Spider-Dan]

No, SF5 can't possibly be fucked. Look at all the Top Players (even ones from other games!) who are playing it! Look at all the Countries that are competing. Look at the record sizes of the tournament entrants!

[Weltall]

God damn I miss SF4


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YOU AND ME BOTH BROTHER!! I cannot wait to be back in Japan later this year, playing against those cats. There isn't any good competition for me on PC version anymore. Maybe I'll download the PS4 ver.

JCVD just went fucking savage mode...

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/...06559-jcvd.jpg

[Spider-Dan]

I love how you guys can say "SF4 is better than those old games because of all the tournaments, however it doesn't matter that SF5 has lots of huge tournaments because that game sucks" with a straight face.

[Deejay]

I really don't care about which game is considered the greatest. All my OG friends say the same shit about IV that I say about V, so who cares really


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[Spider-Dan]

All my OG friends say the same shit about IV that I say about V, so who cares really

nailed it

[Moridam]

re: 'SF4 is the better competitive game'

nobody says SF4 is better than SF5 because the size/frequency of SF4 tournaments is measurably larger than the size/frequency of SF5 tournaments

people say SF4 is better than SF5 because the matches that happen in SF4 tournaments are infinitely more exciting/interesting than the matches that happen in SF5 tournaments

[Deejay]

How soon we forget Vanilla Balrog/Sagat/Trade Dp Ryu ruining American tournaments.

I'm not saying SFV isn't stale right now but who's to say it won't be hype next season? I highly doubt it will be balanced but who knows


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[Moridam]

How soon we forget Vanilla Balrog/Sagat/Trade Dp Ryu ruining American tournaments.

also rufus, who mercifully became less prevalent with each iteration of the game that followed.

[Spider-Dan]

nobody says SF4 is better than SF5 because the size/frequency of SF4 tournaments is measurably larger than the size/frequency of SF5 tournaments

That's correct, because such a statement would be false.

people say SF4 is better than SF5 because the matches that happen in SF4 tournaments are infinitely more exciting/interesting than the matches that happen in SF5 tournaments

And there's the rub.

1) Why is SF4 a "greater competitive game" than SF2/MVC2/3S, which boast many more years of high-level tournament play on a single revision? Not because SF4 is a superior game, but because there was empirically a bigger international tournament scene for SF4.
2) So then why isn't SF5 better than SF4, given that SF5 has an even-larger international tournament scene than SF4 did? Oh, well that's because SF4 is a superior game.

In other words, this "COMPETITIVE fighting game" nonsense is a smokescreen, designed to dodge comparisons of game quality with the legends so that we focus only on tournament attendance and establish the cutoff right below SF4. But when it comes time to compare with a game that has an even better record in that regard, suddenly it's All About That Game Quality.

The idea that people were on the edge of their seats watching vanilla Sagat, AE Yun, and AE Fei Long is, shall we say, one interpretation of history.

[Xno Kappa]

How soon we forget Vanilla Balrog/Sagat/Trade Dp Ryu ruining American tournaments.

I'm not saying SFV isn't stale right now but who's to say it won't be hype next season? I highly doubt it will be balanced but who knows


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The whole conversation is stupid. I don't fault JCVD for trying to revise history as cute as can be that pros never bitched about backdash/crouch-tech/unblockables , and Welt will forever be "cuz reasons I remember from XX year, did I mention I'm the only one on BG with a passport to glorious Nippon!?"

There's no way to quantify the term "competitive" other than actual tournament entrants. There's absolutely no definition of what competitive it is to begin with. Is it how many and who and what people are at whatever tournament? At this point it's blatant bandwagon hatred, no different than the 3rd Strike crowd when SF4 vanilla was released. And I'm pretty sure I can find a post from any BG crew who would say otherwise for BOTH TRANSITIONS.

It's fucking stupid how we soon forget a simple as shit DP-trade>FADC>U1 was 40-60% health was OMG I'M SO GODLIEK! Within the games first 1 or 2 years of vanilla SF4.

[Moridam]

in its purest essence, the question of 'which street fighter is the best' is an inherently subjective topic of argument. i don't understand the obsession with quantification; throwing around sales numbers or tournament entrant figures that anyone can google is boring and pointless. arguing the subjective merits of each game is the only thing that makes the discussion worthwhile.

yes, vanilla was busted as shit, i don't think anyone is trying to argue otherwise. there was a sufficient amount of technical depth to the system where the game improved massively with relatively minor tweaks. some came quickly (large-scale damage nerfs in SSF4) and others took far longer (unblockable/vortex setups). it had enough depth and flexibility to allow for radically different playstyles that were viable (within the same character, even!), and high level play developed steadily over the game's time in the spotlight. does that make it the best ever? i have no fucking clue, but it's easily my favorite SF and (since everyone needs to get their obligatory OG boasts in) i've played SF since champion edition landed in the hampton beach arcades when i was a kid.

it sure makes it better than SF5, though!