Gender Selection

[Enkidu]

If it's not a grand plan thing, I don't think I could care less.

I just worry about the psychological health of a parent obsessed with having certain kids. What's to say, to play devil's advocate, that it won't gravitate to "I always wanted to raise a talented singer" and "I always wanted an athlete instead of the fatties I ended up with"?

I'm concerned this will be growing into eugenics rather than wish fulfillment.

The only reason I don't worry too much about it at the moment is that IVF requires harvesting just about 15 eggs, no more no less, from the mother for the highest probability of live birth. Sperm cannot be genetically chosen simply because it destroys the sperm in the process. So you have 15 random eggs fertilized by 15 random sperm, theoretically you could choose the "best singer" or "best athlete" from a pool of 15 possible kids, that's not really something I'd worry too much about. Certainly a more debatable process though.

Eventually growing eggs from stem cells will be a thing, then the above gets a little hairy. Obviously there needs to be some kind of restriction on scientific progress like this, but I think the bar should pretty much be set where we are right now.

Genetic engineering is another subject completely. Altering a "athletic" gene in an embryo could have terrible consequences. I don't think that would ever be morally justifiable.

[quannum]

if you had 3 boys, you'd want the 4th to be a girl. if you had 3 girls, you'd want the 4th to be a boy. I think you guys are reading too much into the story.

If you have a problem with genetic engineering, you're probably just fear-mongering at this point.

[Enkidu]

This is genetic selection, genetic engineering would be more like altering embryonic genetics for things like disease resistance, qualitatively better attributes (attractiveness, intelligence, athleticism, etc...), height, etc... The problem is just that genes are incredibly intertwined with one another so altering something minor could have terrible consequences.

It might be necessary someday if there's some sort of doomsday disease going around, but until then I think it's best to just let nature do the hard stuff.

Off-topic, but I don't even think Gattaca was necessarily genetic engineering. Didn't they make it a point in the movie to say the baby would just be "the best version of you" or something like that? It would probably be more like the scenario I mentioned above where you could artificially create a large number of eggs via stem cells, fertilize them all, then look for the "best" candidates.

[Salodin]

To add to what you said, there are processes that are almost ready for commercial use for better selection of female embryos. Look up XSORT. THE FUTURE IS NOW

[Drex]

if you had 3 boys, you'd want the 4th to be a girl. if you had 3 girls, you'd want the 4th to be a boy. I think you guys are reading too much into the story.

If you have a problem with genetic engineering, you're probably just fear-mongering at this point.

The objection is over the ethics of parents selecting the children they want, not the procedure or the science behind it or even the want. Suggesting it's natural to want a little variety in your children makes it sound more like a wardrobe; why does it matter? If you're willing to drop 50 g's on a chromosome then it matters a great deal to you, and the motivation behind wanting it that badly suggests very unfortunate things about the parents' priorities.

To me, the decision to have a child is a personal one, never a global one.

Obvious, but once it's born and out and about it becomes everybody's problem. If you're the kind of parent demanding things from a child before it's even conceived, then I am not optimistic about what that child will be like when it's everybody else's responsibility too.

It's the shift from hoping to demanding that worries me. It shouldn't be banned but I think it would be worthwhile to watch for outcomes.

[quannum]

The objection is over the ethics of parents selecting the children they want, not the procedure or the science behind it or even the want. Suggesting it's natural to want a little variety in your children makes it sound more like a wardrobe; why does it matter? If you're willing to drop 50 g's on a chromosome then it matters a great deal to you, and the motivation behind wanting it that badly suggests very unfortunate things about the parents' priorities.

I don't see an ethical problem, I see luddites wanting to smash machines. They already have 3 kids, their parenting ability should already be .. apparent.

Are you suggesting that it's not natural to want a little variety in your children?

How badly should they want it? 25k? $5? At what price does it become ethically acceptable to choose the sex of your 4th child?

What is the ethical problem with being able to select attributes of your offspring? Do you think these people are going to think of their 4th child as a ipad?

[Salodin]

They're simply picking the sex guys. Can some one give any legitimate reason why it's not ok to not only wish for a specific sex, but now have the procedure to get it?

No, this isn't Gattaca. Why is this even being discussed?

[RKenshin]

I'm hesitant to make this argument, as I'm not completely sure how I feel about this view of it myself, but just to say it anyway:

It matters at least partly because people only have one chance at life, and if a person decides that they want to have more than a little say on the circumstances to which they dedicate a sizable portion of their life, time, and money then fine. I don't think that's unfair, abnormal, or unreasonable. It might not always be with the best reasoning or thoughts, but it is their life and their desires and it is no small commitment.

[Drex]

I don't see an ethical problem, I see luddites wanting to smash machines.

Name-calling may have been effective on the playground but I'm not impressed here

They already have 3 kids, their parenting ability should already be .. apparent.

I don't think quantity implies quality, especially in child-rearing. I have no opinion on their parenting skills for their first three children regardless. The problem starts when you look at the third boy and think "another one?"

Are you suggesting that it's not natural to want a little variety in your children?

Actually, in an earlier post I said it's perfectly natural. My question is why? Where does that desire come from? Does a different sex necessarily imply variety? Different dangly bits seems like a superficial standard of variety when talking about a person, let alone your child. What's the value of variety for variety's sake anyway, especially in offspring?

How badly should they want it? 25k? $5? At what price does it become ethically acceptable to choose the sex of your 4th child?

So you do see an ethical problem! If I had an answer I would say put that price on it and we're cool, but I think wanting a price on such a decision is just another symptom of the issue: what is variety in offspring, what are you willing to pay for it, and why do you want it? Assume "just because" is a deflection.

What is the ethical problem with being able to select attributes of your offspring? Do you think these people are going to think of their 4th child as a ipad?

iPads really are all the same (different models aside); little boys are not, especially as they grow up and develop into adults. Seeing the potential fourth son as another one of those (sigh, mope, antidepressant) is a pretty awful way to view a person. The rest smells like justification, and reads like "me me me".

years of “gender disappointment” caused by longing for a daughter

“It’s like mourning the death of a child you never had,”

“My husband wanted a little girl that one day he could walk down the aisle, I wanted a daughter so I could have that relationship ... and our sons wanted a little sister.”

Obnoxious but at least they did not practice infanticide because they did not like the sex of the baby they had.

Yes, at least they did not Sparta the kid. Progress.