Is traditional masculinity harmful to men?

[Kuya]

Topic spurred by this article I just read. The article is titled:
5 stupid, sexist things expected of men

The laws and expectations of our civilized society are designed to keep physical violence to a minimum... So men are expected — indeed required — to avoid and deflect confrontation, and to resolve conflicts without resorting to violence. And when they do, they get called pussies.

And being good in bed has become a crucial part of this mythos as well. It’s no longer enough for a Real Man to nail a lot of women: he has to get every single one of them off... Yet at the same time, men aren’t supposed to care too much what women think.

So yes, men are allowed to be hotter for some girls than others. But they’re still supposed to get it on with anything that moves and spreads its legs.

And if they have the gall (or the lack of self-control) to experience their emotions, they bloody well better not let on about it.

And that staple is usually stapled to the assumption that, for straight men, being mistaken for gay is a humiliating blow to their masculinity.

http://www.salon.com/2014/10/14/5_st...f_men_partner/

I agree with all of them being masculine stereotypes that actually negatively affect men. Anybody agree or disagree? Maybe you have another example of traditional masculinity that is actually detrimental? Or perhaps you have an anecdote that is an example of what i quoted?

A note: I don't think the quotes i put up there break the rules regarding article quoting but if a mod disagrees, i'll gladly edit the post. So just post here or message me if need be. Don't edit the post without messaging me; it's annoying.

[Xajii]

Re: the article

My takeaway here is it's a world of mixed signals, and that much is definitely true. You can't pleas everyone, and more often than not it feels like you can't please anyone. These examples are masculine in nature and definitely highlight some male specific issues, but in my opinion the issue at large extends beyond sex/gender. Society is coming at people from every which angle. I mean, if you flip it on its head, women are expected to at once be beautiful and then not care about society's standards of beauty - both of these concepts feel almost of equal weight in the modern world.

That's what I think youth and people in general struggle with today - the mixed messages. We all want to rise above and carve our own path, but no matter which way you turn, someone - and these days, usually a volumous, vocal gorup of someones - is going to be upset or judgmental.

Re: masculinity

Back to the topic at hand: I think if we are discussing the issues associated with masculinity and society the most damning evidence is male vs female suicide rates. I've thought about this and read about it a fair amount and to me it comes down to one thing about masculinity that harms men the most: the notion that failure is completely unacceptable. A man failing is just about the worst thing that he can do. He is often regarded as trash as a result, and certainly he regards himself this way. Men take failure harder than women because society has ingrained in us that men are to succeed, and that is that despite common tropes of getting back on your feet or try try again, this seems to ME to be the most pervasive masculine trope that feels harmful.

This isn't really a full-baked response but just something I thought I'd bring up to spark discussion

[Ayn]

the notion that failure is completely unacceptable. A man failing is just about the worst thing that he can do. He is often regarded as trash as a result, and certainly he regards himself this way. Men take failure harder than women because society has ingrained in us that men are to succeed, and that is that despite common tropes of getting back on your feet or try try again, this seems to ME to be the most pervasive masculine trope that feels harmful.

Agreed.

Adding to the fact that one of the things that may help someone work through a failure is talking it out with someone (thus requiring an opening of emotions) or allowing themselves to be vulnerable (another huge no-no) and it's kind of a fucked situation.

[kuronosan]

I happen to subscribe to the idea that "traditional" masculinity doesn't even involve chauvinism, superiority, or any of that "get me a beer and sandwich" crap. That's just being an asshole. To me, the real harm to men is the idea that they have to be controlling, directing, and in charge to be a valuable part of a relationship.

I think a relationship needs a leader, and it should be decided who it will be by personality traits or whatever else may play a role. It should not be decided by expectations. Not having direction or feeling as if you have to fill a role, even if you aren't capable of filling it, is what is harmful.

[Sho]

I happen to subscribe to the idea that "traditional" masculinity doesn't even involve chauvinism, superiority, or any of that "get me a beer and sandwich" crap. That's just being an asshole. To me, the real harm to men is the idea that they have to be controlling, directing, and in charge to be a valuable part of a relationship.

I think a relationship needs a leader, and it should be decided who it will be by personality traits or whatever else may play a role. It should not be decided by expectations. Not having direction or feeling as if you have to fill a role, even if you aren't capable of filling it, is what is harmful.

Can break this down even further and make it dynamic as well. Leadership roles can also be defined depending on the situations, for example the wife taking care of the finances while the husband handles the cooking tasks and meals, for example. This is essentially what the basis of the 21st Century relationship looks like -- gender roles being severely blurred and almost always being limited to sex & pregnancy/nursing.

[Voyage1970]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

This is kinda relevant. Wikipedia goes into a little bit of why this is a thing, but a lot of it has to do with expectations on how women should behave and basically be lead by men and how this leads to expectations that men should be the ones in control of the relationship even though that puts an inordinate amount of pressure on a lot of them who have no interest in that sort of dynamic.

[GoggleHead]

Agreed.

Adding to the fact that one of the things that may help someone work through a failure is talking it out with someone (thus requiring an opening of emotions) or allowing themselves to be vulnerable (another huge no-no) and it's kind of a fucked situation.

Basically men work without an emotional safety net. If we fuck up hard, it's all on us. It's our own damn fault and it's our responsibility to work through it on our own. Reaching out to others about what we're going through isn't something we like to do, no one really wants to hear about our shitty problems and they'll think less of us if we do bring it up. So it just sort of leaves all this frustration swirling around internally with no outlet. Eventually you either overcome it or it overcomes you.

Hands up, how many guys here have seriously contemplated suicide? I don't mean the "aw fuck this situation is impossible, maybe I'll just off myself", I mean sitting down and thinking long and hard on the logistics. Planning out when, where, how far in front of the train platform to grab the third rail so the poor conductor rolling into the station doesn't have to deal with the sickening crunch of the car rolling over your corpse...

For all the violence in the world that's attributed to men, I think there's a terrifying amount of it that simply turns inward instead and consumes us from within.

[Penthesilea]

Basically men work without an emotional safety net. If we fuck up hard, it's all on us. It's our own damn fault and it's our responsibility to work through it on our own. Reaching out to others about what we're going through isn't something we like to do, no one really wants to hear about our shitty problems and they'll think less of us if we do bring it up. So it just sort of leaves all this frustration swirling around internally with no outlet. Eventually you either overcome it or it overcomes you.

Hands up, how many guys here have seriously contemplated suicide? I don't mean the "aw fuck this situation is impossible, maybe I'll just off myself", I mean sitting down and thinking long and hard on the logistics. Planning out when, where, how far in front of the train platform to grab the third rail so the poor conductor rolling into the station doesn't have to deal with the sickening crunch of the car rolling over your corpse...

For all the violence in the world that's attributed to men, I think there's a terrifying amount of it that simply turns inward instead and consumes us from within.

I have never once thought that. Ever.

[kuronosan]

Basically men work without an emotional safety net. If we fuck up hard, it's all on us. It's our own damn fault and it's our responsibility to work through it on our own. Reaching out to others about what we're going through isn't something we like to do, no one really wants to hear about our shitty problems and they'll think less of us if we do bring it up. So it just sort of leaves all this frustration swirling around internally with no outlet. Eventually you either overcome it or it overcomes you.

Hands up, how many guys here have seriously contemplated suicide? I don't mean the "aw fuck this situation is impossible, maybe I'll just off myself", I mean sitting down and thinking long and hard on the logistics. Planning out when, where, how far in front of the train platform to grab the third rail so the poor conductor rolling into the station doesn't have to deal with the sickening crunch of the car rolling over your corpse...

For all the violence in the world that's attributed to men, I think there's a terrifying amount of it that simply turns inward instead and consumes us from within.

What the hell are you talking about?

[GoggleHead]

Men aren't allowed to ask for help, so instead we kill ourselves. Was that blunt enough for you?

Fuck, that'll teach me to try being sincere on the poopdeck.

[kuronosan]

No, I follow you now. I actually agree.

[Aristio]

Traditional masculinity is horribly damaging to men.

*We can't have feelings
*We can't cry
*We can't be physically weak
*We can't be raped, especially by a female
*We can't fail
*We can't be a stay at home dad

There are so many other examples I could use but you get what I'm saying. Us being men, automatically has a set of expectations no matter each persons individual personalities or traits. I do think gender roles are getting blurry as of late, but there is so much pressure from every aspect of our life, even at a young age, that you have to be a 'man.' Just think about the reaction most people display when their child gets hurt. How do the parents react when their little girl gets hurt versus their little boy.

[hey]

Back to the topic at hand: I think if we are discussing the issues associated with masculinity and society the most damning evidence is male vs female suicide rates. I've thought about this and read about it a fair amount and to me it comes down to one thing about masculinity that harms men the most: the notion that failure is completely unacceptable. A man failing is just about the worst thing that he can do. He is often regarded as trash as a result, and certainly he regards himself this way. Men take failure harder than women because society has ingrained in us that men are to succeed, and that is that despite common tropes of getting back on your feet or try try again, this seems to ME to be the most pervasive masculine trope that feels harmful.

Women actually attempt suicide much more often, but are really bad at it, so men succeed more often.

[GoggleHead]

Women actually attempt suicide much more often, but are really bad at it, so men succeed more often.

Based on my own personal experiences with the issue it seems more like cries for help or attention than an actual decision to kill oneself. I'm more than willing to entertain the notion that women are just really fucking bad at offing themselves, but I think there's a fair portion of it that isn't an earnest attempt to commit suicide.

[Priran]

Women actually attempt suicide much more often, but are really bad at it, so men succeed more often.

women use suicide methods that leave significant windows for them to be found and rescued (downing bottles of whatever), or are exceedingly unlikely to succeed (wrist cutting). success is typically accidental.

men shoot themselves in the head. men who commit suicide are also overall older and whiter.

[hey]

Based on my own personal experiences with the issue it seems more like cries for help or attention than an actual decision to kill oneself. I'm more than willing to entertain the notion that women are just really fucking bad at offing themselves, but I think there's a fair portion of it that isn't an earnest attempt to commit suicide.

I think that's true either way for both men and women. But the difference mostly comes from the methods. Women are more likely to use methods like taking a lot of pills, which most people don't realize almost never works, while men are more likely to do things like shoot themselves, which usually does.

women use suicide methods that leave significant windows for them to be found and rescued (downing bottles of whatever), or are exceedingly unlikely to succeed (wrist cutting). success is typically accidental.

Taking pills is actually one of the least successful methods of suicide, regardless of outside help. I think it's really disingenuous to say they weren't really trying because they didn't do something with a higher chance of success (which they may not have even known).

[Thunder]

Hands up, how many guys here have seriously contemplated suicide? I don't mean the "aw fuck this situation is impossible, maybe I'll just off myself", I mean sitting down and thinking long and hard on the logistics. Planning out when, where, how far in front of the train platform to grab the third rail so the poor conductor rolling into the station doesn't have to deal with the sickening crunch of the car rolling over your corpse...

I've never thought about it in such detail but a few times I've "jokingly" thought to myself, "wouldn't it be easier to just gtfo(die)?" I think the only thing that'll keep me from at least running away from life and living a cushy life in some warm country is passion/purpose

Fuck, that'll teach me to try being sincere on the poopdeck.

lol, you shouldn't feel so bad just because two anonymous people give you a little bit of shit over what you said man

Anyway,
In my opinion people are too "soft" on the things you need to be "hard" on (overcoming discomfort)

-People out there still eat for comfort, watch too much TV, anticipate their vacations more than their careers, and avoid gym/good food/other shit because it's too "uncomfortable".

and too "hard" on things you gotta be "soft" on (letting emotion run your body).

-People yell or beat their spouse/gf/bf for bullshit that should be divorced of emotion, get personally offended at things that have nothing to do with them, or get mad when someone makes fun of them.

[GoggleHead]

Take pills.
Walk into kitchen.
Tell parents.

Doing it for attention or as a cry for help.
Not doing it to kill oneself.

Literally woke up to that happening a few years back. This shit gets done for attention.

[Priran]

they didn't do something with a higher chance of success (which they may not have even known).

lol excuse me

[hey]

Take pills.
Walk into kitchen.
Tell parents.

Doing it for attention or as a cry for help.
Not doing it to kill oneself.

Literally woke up to that happening a few years back. This shit gets done for attention.

Sometimes, sure. It's also common for people to instantly regret their choice, and then try to save themselves before anything happens. You sometimes even hear stories of people who jump off bridges, and then within the 4-5 seconds before they land, regret it, and flip their body around so they land in a position that they have a better chance of surviving in. That doesn't mean they didn't want to die. Sometimes people change their minds.

lol excuse me

It's a common misconception that drug overdose is a reasonably effective and easy way to kill yourself. It's not. Less than 2% of attempts succeed.