Teen kills herself, parents are terrible (Transgender thread)

[Blubbartron]

So he wants to be respected by his parents, while she is pretty much disrespecting her parents.

I know some people here will say "the parents so close minded, what assholes", but their upbringing made them close minded to this, and unaccepting of such a thing. Why couldnt Leelah wait a year, turn 18, move out, and then do whatever she wants? She was living under her parents roof, and the one whos paying the bills gets to set the rules, no?

One of the problems with this approach is that the longer you wait, the more unlikely a good transition will be possible. You're still maturing in your late teens, and hormone therapy still has a good amount of time to make your body look the way you think it should look. The earlier you start, the better your results.

This might be crossing a line, so I'll apologize right now if this is hurtful (I don't mean it to be an asshole, it's just true), but I assume you've seen hey's pictures in the RL thread. Perfect example of starting transition too late to have much effect. The physically masculine features are essentially set in stone without extensive cosmetic surgery.

[hey]

So he wants to be respected by his parents, while she is pretty much disrespecting her parents.

I know some people here will say "the parents so close minded, what assholes", but their upbringing made them close minded to this, and unaccepting of such a thing. Why couldnt Leelah wait a year, turn 18, move out, and then do whatever she wants? She was living under her parents roof, and the one whos paying the bills gets to set the rules, no?

Because she was depressed as a result of constant abuse for years. At some point enough is enough. It's also not so simple to just move out at 18, because trans people are heavily discriminated against and often cannot get jobs.

Setting rules does not mean you can abuse people and deny someone medical treatment.

[hey]

That assigned/designated at birth term is so ridiculous. It's intentionally trying to deny physical reality. No person just up and "decides" what you are. It's a perfect example of the victim complex of tumblrinas/SJWs/modern feminists. The idea that society is trying to force something on a person is literally built into the words they create.

No...? Gender and sex are unrelated. You're the one denying reality. It has been well established for example, that the brains of trans people are more similar to brains of people of their same gender than those of the same sex.

[NynJa]

whoa whoa, hold on a minute
a multi-thousand dollar sex change is "medical treatment"? Does Obamacare cover it?

[Aksannyi]

I don't think that's what hey is talking about. Hormones which stop (known as "blockers," I believe) and/or reverse puberty's effects on the body which help eliminate the dysphoria. Those are medically necessary to trans men and women.

The surgery is and always has been elective, to my understanding.

[hey]

This might be crossing a line, so I'll apologize right now if this is hurtful (I don't mean it to be an asshole, it's just true), but I assume you've seen hey's pictures in the RL thread. Perfect example of starting transition too late to have much effect. The physically masculine features are essentially set in stone without extensive cosmetic surgery.

Well, I've only been on hrt about 3 months now, so it's not really set in stone, there's still plenty of room for improvement over the next few years. But yes, this is definitely true. It's not that there's no hope if you don't start in your early teens, but outcomes are definitely much worse than they would be of you did. Making someone wait years definitely has a HUGE negative impact on them for the rest of their life. Certain things like facial hair, Adam's apple, voice deepening, etc are permanent and can't be changed without either significant effort or expensive treatments (laser hair removal, surgery).

[hey]

whoa whoa, hold on a minute
a multi-thousand dollar sex change is "medical treatment"? Does Obamacare cover it?

Hormones are less than $20 per month without insurance.

[hey]

I don't think that's what hey is talking about. Hormones which stop (known as "blockers," I believe) and/or reverse puberty's effects on the body which help eliminate the dysphoria. Those are medically necessary to trans men and women.

The surgery is and always has been elective, to my understanding.

Yeah that's right. Most trans people do not get or even want surgery. That certainly would not even be on the table for someone under 18.

[Talint]

Y'all talking like language is a logical construct and not just an evolution of what we've done in the past thousands of years.

[Blubbartron]

No...? Gender and sex are unrelated. You're the one denying reality. It has been well established for example, that the brains of trans people are more similar to brains of people of their same gender than those of the same sex.

I know gender and sex are unrelated, and said as much when answering CS's question earlier. I was specifically referring to using that absurd term instead of simply "sex", which has long been known as what your genetics are. The only time "assigned (fe)male at birth" would make any sense whatsoever is in the case of hermaphrodites whose parents elect to have the child undergo SRS immediately.

The words assigned and designated are verbs that imply some kind of agency where there was none. I guess that's my basic point.

[BadKarma]

This thread is everything i hoped it would be

[Abandon]

holy shit, this thread

[hey]

I know gender and sex are unrelated, and said as much when answering CS's question earlier. I was specifically referring to using that absurd term instead of simply "sex", which has long been known as what your genetics are. The only time "assigned (fe)male at birth" would make any sense whatsoever is in the case of hermaphrodites whose parents elect to have the child undergo SRS immediately.

The words assigned and designated are verbs that imply some kind of agency where there was none. I guess that's my basic point.

I never knew babies were given a genetic test to determine sex. There are more characteristics than chromosomes that determine sex. For example, genitals, other sex organs, such as ovaries, hormone levels, brain differences, etc etc. not everyone of either sex will meet all of the criteria. Sometimes there are people with XX chromosomes who otherwise are 100% male, and visa versa. These people are still considered male because they fit within that category better, even though they don't have every characteristic.

[RKenshin]

Christ people.

and I'm saying if it's intentional then by definition it's not a pronoun 'mistake' so why are you arguing an unrelated issue?

Because it was related to the posts I was addressing? (which was not yours) And it is still related to this topic?

I'm simply against the idea that getting pronouns wrong is enough evidence by itself to say someone is a bigot/terrible person... as if it isn't something that could ever potentially (EVEN IF NOT IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE) be an honest mistake after a decade+ of things being one way.

As for hey's response, see above.

Seriously, what's so difficult to understand about that?

I'm not saying using the right pronouns isn't important, I'm not saying that they weren't intentionally still calling her a he, I'm not saying they think they made mistakes with their pronouns, and I'm not calling them anything other than terrible parents. Enough with the strawmen.

[hey]

Fine, yes, making an honest mistake happens. I've already said multiple times that's fine. Hell, I've done it myself to others before. I'm not sure why you're bringing that up here though, since no honest mistake was made.

[Qalbert]

haven't seen anyone in here saying that someone slipping up and using a pronoun they're used to is the same as willfully and intentionally abusing your child so I don't know who you're trying to convince? you came into the thread saying people shouldn't criticize the parents for mistakenly using the wrong pronoun but no one had been criticized for a mistake? everyone who is using the wrong pronoun has been doing so completely intentionally, so again, I'm not really sure what the fucking point is of you coming in and getting all mad about people not understanding your stance on a tangential issue that again, no one was even arguing. enough with the strawmen.

[RKenshin]

such fervent arguing over a minor point, is there nothing else better to argue over here?

Fine, yes, making an honest mistake happens. I've already said multiple times that's fine. Hell, I've done it myself to others before. I'm not sure why you're bringing that up here though, since no honest mistake was made.

Because a number of posts focusing on pronouns seemed to imply that regardless of whether it is a mistake, getting it wrong makes you a bad person. Whether or not that was meant to be implied, I simply wanted to make it clear that it should not - and for similar reasons is a weak point to focus on in what the parents did wrong (particularly compared to the worse things they did).

haven't seen anyone in here saying that someone slipping up and using a pronoun they're used to is the same as willfully and intentionally abusing your child

Nor did I say that anyone here said that. I in fact said it was ridiculous to treat them the same... Hence the first line of my first post:

Of all the reasons the parents may be terrible, uncaring, and/or part of the cause of the suicide... not using the proper pronouns in casual speech/writing isn't the best one to focus on IMO.

doh

so I don't know who you're trying to convince?

Why don't you ask yourself this question? If you think my post is irrelevant and tangential then why are you getting yourself all upset about nothing?

you came into the thread saying people shouldn't criticize the parents for mistakenly using the wrong pronoun

Nope, never said that, anywhere.

everyone who is using the wrong pronoun has been doing so completely intentionally, so again, I'm not really sure what the fucking point is of you coming in and getting all mad about people not understanding your stance on a tangential issue that again, no one was even arguing. enough with the strawmen.

lolnoumad

[Aksannyi]

The thing is, I think that getting the pronouns and her name wrong as they will sit on her grave for as long as it takes the stone to corrode to being illegible is a pretty terrible offense that the parents have made. Yes, simply calling her "he" in the media and for sound bites is terrible, but even worse is that her memory will be dishonored by the people who should most want to honor it.

[RKenshin]

Yes, I again agree in all of that.

[hey]

Because a number of posts focusing on pronouns seemed to imply that regardless of whether it is a mistake, getting it wrong makes you a bad person. Whether or not that was meant to be implied, I simply wanted to make it clear that it should not - and for similar reasons is a weak point to focus on in what the parents did wrong (particularly compared to the worse things they did).

Such as? I haven't seen any such posts.