Relic Weapon Adjustments

[Classikmage]

I made a post in the Official Forums concerning Relic Weapons I think would be a decent idea, and would make some of the less used ones more appealing.

I think it would be a better idea to make the aftermath effects on the relic weapons a static stat on the weapon and change the WS's to "Damage varies with TP". Mythic and Empyrean already have their own individual stat boosts, while all relic gets is normal ilvl stats and the OTD full-time, which is nice don't get me wrong.

I think this would make some relic weapons more desirable and give some nice niche stats to jobs.

Final Heaven(Spharai): +10 Subtle Blow
Mercy Stroke(Mandau): +5% Critical Hit Rate
Knights of Round(Excalibur): +10 HP/tick Regen
Scourge(Ragnarok): +5% Critical Hit Rate
Onslaught(Guttler): +10% Attack
Metatron Torment(Bravura): -20% Damage Taken
Catastrophe(Apocalypse): +10% Haste
Geirskogul(Gungnir): Shock Spikes
Blade:Metsu(Kikoku): +10 Subtle Blow
Tachi:Kaiten(Amanomurakumo) +7 Store TP
Randgrith(Mjollnir): +20 Accuracy
Gate of Tartarus(Claustrum): +8 MP/tick
Coronach(Annihilator): -20 Enmity
Namas Arrow(Yoichinoyumi): +20 Accuracy

Now, some of these like Knights of Round and Claustrum may have been pretty over-powered to have full-time back at 75, but at item level standards they are really not that bad. Claustrum would actually have a use as an idle piece for BLM/SMN. +10 HP full-time I doubt would be broken at all for PLD in end game. -20% Damage Taken full-time for WAR, at first does seem pretty potent, but honestly, most if not all DD's carry DT sets for endgame anyway, all it would do is make it easier for WAR to cap DT w/o sacrificing as much damage as before. A nice situational niche to have on occasion.

If you changed all these WS's to "Damage varies with TP" I think a lot of them would still have use in the normal scheme of things, even without an Aftermath.

If anyone has any feedback on this idea, please let me know.

Post feedback on your thought/opions about this.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...pon-Adjustment

[Teknique]

I doubt SE cares enough about relics at this point due to mythics and empryean to change anything.

[dasva]

Yeah they have sadly consistently ignored threads like this

[Mercilessturtle]

Why would this be needed? Relics themselves are fine, just changing the WS to damage varies with TP would be plenty.

[Sechs]

How about instead we players stop being obsessed with RMEs in general, demanding them to be OMGTHEBESTWTF weapons ever and start demanding SE to focus on more important core stuff of the game instead of these onanistic details that hardly matter for the health fo the game at the end of the day?

[NynJa]

adding a couple items for these "onanistic trials" isnt exactly causing the game to be ruined. Do you really think getting the 300 pluton/beits/boulders to be a huge massive task that took up a bunch of dev time?

[Sechs]

I dunno Nynja, it's all a vicious circle.

For a healthy game environment imho RMEs should at best have the role they had 8+ years ago when they were unbalanced, powerful weapons that only a few individuals in the world could manage to achieve.
They were some unreachable goal to aim to, something giving you "social status" etc.

The position RMEs have now is quite different, I think they're still something achieved by a minority of players, but this minority is quite considerable and large now, compared to the few individuals of many years ago.
Overpowered items* are always wrong within the ergonomy of a game sustainability and balance, but when they only affect double/triple digit total amount of players in the world, it's no big deal, is it?
From a DEV point of view too much focus on RMEs (from players and from devs) is only a source of an endless circle of issues for the game and its community.

Why did things reach this point?

Spoiler: show

Because of stagnation. Game stagnates, there's hardly anything to do, to work for, to aim for, and people start focusing on RMEs.
Devs make those goals easier to achieve, or do nothing when people find "alternative" and debateable means to obtain them. And why do they do that? Because in the end, on a short term, it "buys them time", it keeps people busy without putting too much strain on their new content development potential. I.e. people are kept busy even in a highly stagnating context without forcing devs to work on new stuff to do to offer to players to keep them busy.


But this create other issues in the long term.
When some people work "hard" (air quotes because it's highly subjective to define what is and isn't hard) on something, of course they don't want to see it become useless compared to other much easier to obtain options. They want those items to keep their status forever.
And this requires updates.

And, again, it puts devs in a very difficult position from where it's hard to get out.
With RMEs becoming more and more common, it becomes hard to make other weapon/gear options look "interesting". And when you balance content's "level of interest" by the items it drops, that creates a dev issue.
If you make these items more powerful than RMEs, then of course people will rightfully complain and demand updates.
What do devs do at that point? If they leave things as they are people will whine and eventually drop subs.
If they don't, then content will be mostly ignored because of lack of good rewards.

And more problems arise when such rare items are so powerful. When only a handful of people in the world have them it's no big deal, when so many people have them that they become the new required standard to have to be able to play on a certain job, then it creates more issues.
Because jobs won't be balanced anymore on what they can do by themselves in theory, but by what they can do with that certain item.
And what happens when you don't? You would be playing a broken, "incomplete" job.
And as a dev, how do you balance this?
You could buff the job, but if you do you would most likely make the situation even worse.
You could nerf those powerful items, but you'd be back at the point where people whine and possibly drop subs.

And so on, and so on, it's vicious circle that never ends and only spirals further downwards.

I don't think it's now possible to get out of this circle, but putting more focus on "balancing relics" now would only make things even worse.
Did adding plutons/riftborn/beitetsu and individually rebalancing each weapon suck up a lot of dev resources? You asked.
Probably not, but then again what does?
And, in the end, as small of an effort that might have been, it all adds up.
But that's not even the point imho.
One thing is leaving RMEs at 99 when you have 119 options available. Another thing is leaving them as they are now (which while not perfect is a much better and sustainable situation) and avoid further specific adjustments until the ilevel cap is raised again, which is exactly what I think would be the lesser evil at this point.

Of course once they raise the cap further adjustments would be needed, but at that point it would be for all RMEs and not just for relics.



*
This was the old model.
While with SoA they didn't achieve perfect balancement in weapons, I think they improved the situation compared to how it was in some periods of the game's life in the past. Yes there are still quite some overpowered items, but all in all the difference between "RME Weapons" and "other 119 options" seem to be more sustainable now than it was during most of the past FFXI eras.
Just my impression of course.

[Raelia]

I'm about to start farming Apocalypse. Not because it will make my DRK top-tier, but just because I always wanted one.

That being said, some relics are way better off than others. Scythe doesn't have and hasn't gotten a decent WS while it can be argued that GS has gotten Resolution and Dimidiation, to which Entropy and Insurgency are no comparison. The haste aftermath is just mostly redundant now too. Everything has haste on it, any job can cap without belt slot, etc.

[ClarkSammich]

This may be an inappropriate thread to ask, but just how easy are relic and mythic weapons to get now, and by what processes? I quit about three years ago and played for a few days in early 2014 to help a friend complete the relic he started years previously, and it seemed nearly everyone had one.
Having quit FFXIV due to boring game, GW2 due to bad game, etc. I'm considering playing FFXI again and would definitely want to go after a mythic, but don't know how realistic a goal that is considering I'd be coming back w/ abyssea gear and a 4-5m.

edit: seriously on FFXIAH people have like seventeen of the fuckers, I want a vajra since thf is relevant now

[Rehn]

Relic weapon will happen if you have gil or have a steady gil income. It really is very easy to make a relic now if gil isn't a concern. Mythic is mythic, and alex supply is heavily dependant on your server. Empy is in the same boat, and plate supplies will dictate how long it takes for you to finish.

[dasva]

I'm not saying we should necessarily make relics as good of weapons as mythic/empyrean counterparts but maybe balance them with themselves so some aren't complete trash, with a complete trash ws and complete trash aftermath while some are others are still really good and a couple are BiS for what they do. And up the damn aftermath duration. most the aftermaths are mediocre to begin with so there is no reason they can't be as long as mythic aftermaths

[Karizo]

This may be an inappropriate thread to ask, but just how easy are relic and mythic weapons to get now, and by what processes? I quit about three years ago and played for a few days in early 2014 to help a friend complete the relic he started years previously, and it seemed nearly everyone had one.
Having quit FFXIV due to boring game, GW2 due to bad game, etc. I'm considering playing FFXI again and would definitely want to go after a mythic, but don't know how realistic a goal that is considering I'd be coming back w/ abyssea gear and a 4-5m.

edit: seriously on FFXIAH people have like seventeen of the fuckers, I want a vajra since thf is relevant now

When it comes to making a mythic, dedication and consistency is key, unless you have a deep pocket. Let's break it down assuming you have captain's rank, if not, add onto this plan however many days it will take you to reach captain.

1) 50 days down the drain by doing all 50 assaults, + however many days for each assault you mess up on (which will happen, like the ore one which is completely random number generator pwnage).

2) + however many days it'll take you to get 150k nyzul token, the record I believe is 11 days? (as high as 14k a run? at least the highest I've seen, but good luck getting that every run).

3) Therion ichor should be achievable under the restriction of assaults + nyzul token (to be safe, 60+ days of T3 Ein should get you plenty of ichor, each T3 gives 1920 max)

4) Alexandrites, which you need 30k of, break it down to 60 days at least, that's 500 alexandrites each day. if you do salvage II every day, that's basically guaranteed 100 a day if not more, if you get lucky. for the other 400, assuming a price of 7k-8k, that's 2.8mil to 3.2mil, can be covered mostly by a good dynamis run each day. now you just need some spare cash each day to cover the rest.

in conclusion: you want to be very consistent for 2 months+ to make a mythic and a steady rate, it's not hard, but it'll take dedication. and if you don't have captain's rank, it'll give you some slack on alex /day, which is also good news.

[Ophannus]

I wish they just adjusted relic ws so they all gave special edges. Right now only like bow, gun and scythe have unique properties everything else is a weird mod. Chances are when they increase ilvl, we'll just see an increase to base damage and m.acc skill.

[dasva]

in conclusion: you want to be very consistent for 2 months+ to make a mythic and a steady rate, it's not hard, but it'll take dedication. and if you don't have captain's rank, it'll give you some slack on alex /day, which is also good news.

It's hard to do if you have a job/school... or actually want to play the game. I mean you propose a salvage, ein, and dynamis run everyday and then a few assaults every couple of days for a few months... aint nobody got time for that

[ClarkSammich]

in conclusion: you want to be very consistent for 2 months+ to make a mythic and a steady rate, it's not hard, but it'll take dedication. and if you don't have captain's rank, it'll give you some slack on alex /day, which is also good news.

I could definitely do this if broken up into chunks over 4+ months, I'm not trying to do it as fast as humanly possible.

Thanks for the info.

[Karizo]

It's hard to do if you have a job/school... or actually want to play the game. I mean you propose a salvage, ein, and dynamis run everyday and then a few assaults every couple of days for a few months... aint nobody got time for that

not saying it's easy T-T just finished my yagrush like this though... gg 2+ months of life haha

[dasva]

not saying it's easy T-T just finished my yagrush like this though... gg 2+ months of life haha

Oh I understand it's not easy I'm just saying for many there just isn't enough time in the day to accomplish it

[FaeQueenCory]

How about instead we players stop being obsessed with RMEs in general, demanding them to be OMGTHEBESTWTF weapons ever and start demanding SE to focus on more important core stuff of the game instead of these onanistic details that hardly matter for the health fo the game at the end of the day?

It's not that the demand is for them to be the absolute best (though some do want that), it's more that the desire for the effort required should yield an equal or worthwhile boon. (To which Empyreans do not. Even if HMP and Cinders/Dross rained from the sky to the oversaturation of 1k bazaar being the norm.... They'd still be a waste to make. Because they're supersupersuper shit.)

And I also disagree about them being made into what they were 8 years ago.
Not on the virtue of their completion, but by the virtue of their position.
Back then, 75era, there certainly was a gap between RM and every other weapon, but it was not the giant chasm it was back in the 99era. And I believe we have returned to that styling.
Just to use GK as an example: Amano and Koga certainly were the top... But Nanatsusaya-no-tachi was equal enough to be considered. (And even opened up a different playstyle of 100% Zanshin) And you even had Soboro under certain circumstances that would be more favorable...
All of that is not that dissimilar to today's situation with Tsurumaru. (Which is why I specifically chose GK for the example!)

OP's want is redic and unreasonable. Sure 5% crit sounds small on paper... But in practice you find that it's a pretty large boost.
Better to adjust the crappy relicWSs and open relic access. (Also: make Apoc's AM magic instead of gear. iLvs literally made <25% gear haste nigh impossible on DRK.)

What should be done to the REMs:
•Adjust RelicWS to make them more in line with the other "endgameWSs." (Any WS with LIGHT, DARKNESS, or 1/2 Light or Darkness basically.) Basically make them more than just AM triggers. And not all need the adjustment.
•Adjust Relics and Empyreans to be useable by all the relevant jobs.
•Adjust Empyrean and Ergon weapon codes so they have the similar +40% and +30% sameWSdmgboost as their analogous Relic and Mythic weapons have, respectively. (This will make Empys, while still shitty weapons, actually justifiable to be made... And actually have an excuse for why the ghetto!relics took a massive DPS hit when they transitioned from 99>119. Being able to use EmpyWSs with relics makes any arguments about how that would be "too powerful" invalid. Because you can already do that without the Empyrean weapon.)

They shouldn't be so overpowered that they reduce all nonREMs to shit... But they should be worthwhile to make.

[Limlight]

and still not be as good as shark dagger thief!

[Classikmage]

•Adjust Relic WS to make them more in line with the other "endgameWSs."

This is pretty much the whole point of my idea. If the TP Bonus on the Relic WS's wasn't tied to giving us statistical bonuses that most of which are equivalent to what you see on normal gear, than they could change the effect to something that would actually benefit the WS itself, thereby making the Relic WS's better than what they were previously. "Damage varies with TP" is just an example I chose since it's the most commonly sought after TP bonus nowadays. But almost any TP Bonus would be better than what it's tied to now.