Education Reform Thread

[Ksandra]

Ksandra, I never said you think your committee exists.

You honestly think some one is sitting down with every lesson plan, for every teacher, for all 180 days looking through to check for standards?

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I explained before the problem with your solution, that is you're expecting to critique a teacher based on the results the teachers give the supervisors that the very same teacher evaluated. You're literally saying "grade me based on the grades I give my students". You counter this by saying they can see your lesson plans, but that means nothing when having a plan does nothing if you can't work the plan.

You do not have an understanding at all of what I am talking about.

Let's start that first: a similar concept already exists. In California, in order to get your teaching certificate you need to submit a unit plan with tests handouts, and student samples. Along with a video of you teaching your class one day (student teaching) and some analysis writing. To keep your certificate, you have to repeat this process again once hired. So there are already people who look into plans and how they are designed and carried out.

You are not thinking logically. If a committee looks at your plans and see they are too easy/too hard then they can tell you what they want from you next year. They can find proof of student learning through their quizzes answers. It's not "grade me on how I grade my kids" it's "look at how I teach/grade my kids and see if that is accurate to how these students should be graded."

Keep in mind the concept of a "bad teacher" is one who hands out worksheets and shows videos everyday and the kids learn nothing. Showing the lesson plans give the committee what you teach and the quizzes help prove you actually taught it and in a way kids understood it.

You're against standardized testing, but are for your testing?

Not teacher generated tests. Because we make the tests based on what we taught.

That's not how a job works,

That's not how YOU want the job to work. Accept the fact that we are giving opinions, not any statistical data. Hell, if you want to go that route, that is similar to how Credit Unions work, and surprisingly, give their customers better service because of it.

You are spot on when you say looking at quizzes, etc, create a more accurate picture of a teachers abilities, more so then standardized tests, but that's not the point of a standardized test. It's a focus sure, even though it shouldn't be as much as it is now. These tests influencing your evaluation is more of a by product of the point of the test, that is to make sure students are at the level they need to be before promotion.

Glass is half empty or half full, it doesn't matter what way you want to word it.

Are art teachers paid as much as a normal teacher? Legitimate question, I assumed they weren't. Same for any kind of specials teacher. If you believe they require incentives, then I'd be open to discussing what those would be. I'm not completely convinced they need it though.

Why don't they need it? Why are these skills not important? Are you kidding me? You'd be ok with a bad arts teacher?

You're stuck on the concept that having a standardized test means we have to teach the test, which I already mentioned is terrible, so I don't know where you're coming from. The point I've consistently made isn't to teach to the test, it's to use the test as a tool to evaluate not just the students level, but to take that information and infer a teachers teaching ability. How we do so needs work, but I'm not of the idea that they need to be abolished.

Teaching to the test will always produce better results than not. Adding money incentives will cause teachers to try even more to teach to the test.

History is still tested but it's not on standardized tests.

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I am wrong on the PE thing, you are right there are tests for that one.

But also science, while tested, is not tested every year (in California), so bonuses would fuck over the science teachers who happen to teach the grades not being tested. Unless Salodin is advocating for MORE tests.

[Salodin]

Not at all, but I did already say the current incentive method needs an overhaul; not once did I say it was fine as is.

The first quote isn't wrong, do you not submit all your lesson plans to your leader or principal? They do down here, but it's pencil whipped, they never check them all. Sorry if you misunderstood that as it might work differently in CA.

The process for getting your certificate is identical in Florida, but that's not comparable to having a special group checking all your lesson plans to see what you can improve on. It's apples to oranges. Your example on how you'd be graded by the special group is fine, but this is already achieved, cheaper and easier, with mandatory walk throughs and standardized testing. I won't make the same mistake, so you tell me if your AP or principal is required to do a handful of walk throughs a year. What reason do you have to think that the same common material administered by you is somehow more successful for the student than the same material covered by the standardized test?

As far as art/pe go, I've beaten the dead horse with "the current incentive program needs to be overhauled".

Teaching to the test is always a problem, but you'd find similar problems with your solution. Why wouldn't a teacher heavily assist a student with the quizzes they're submitting to a committee if it meant more money in their paycheck? The problem goes both ways.

Science might not be tested every year, but that's irrelevant when, at least in FL, the FCAT wasn't every year either. Besides, I'm not a supporter of heavily basing a bonus on the standardized tests. Influenced sure, but not heavily based on it.

[Ksandra]

The first quote isn't wrong, do you not submit all your lesson plans to your leader or principal? They do down here, but it's pencil whipped, they never check them all. Sorry if you misunderstood that as it might work differently in CA.

Of course I do and she doesn't read it. I don't know why you seem to think I thought they do. With that said, this school was under heavy scrutiny a few years back (obviously before I worked there), and the district did read them. The English Department head reviews all lesson plans, unit plans, etc..

Your example on how you'd be graded by the special group is fine, but this is already achieved, cheaper and easier, with mandatory walk throughs and standardized testing. I won't make the same mistake, so you tell me if your AP or principal is required to do a handful of walk throughs a year.

Of course they do walkthroughs and I have no issues with them. But that is my own principal doing it, which you seem to be against. (I am fully fine with it)

What reason do you have to think that the same common material administered by you is somehow more successful for the student than the same material covered by the standardized test?

I don't, that is for the committee to decide. I do know that I create tests based on what I teach. VS. the luck of the draw. I have no idea which vocabulary words will be on the state test. I do know which vocabulary words I taught, and can test them to see if they remember those words. Therefore, the chances are my quizzes are a more accurate display if my students learned what I taught vs. a state test. It would be a committee that would decide if I chose appropriate words to test.

Teaching to the test is always a problem, but you'd find similar problems with your solution. Why wouldn't a teacher heavily assist a student with the quizzes they're submitted to a committee if it meant more money in their paycheck? The problem goes both ways.

Are you suggesting that teachers don't cheat on the state tests? It happens all the time. This goes back to the common concept about how people will always break laws, but that doesn't mean you don't create them. At some point you have to learn to trust teachers. We are not criminals. We want to do a good job. The more pressure on us, the more that cracks and cheats.

Science might not be tested every year, but that's irrelevant when, at least in FL, the FCAT wasn't every year either. Besides, I'm not a supporter of heavily basing a bonus on the standardized tests. Influenced sure, but not heavily based on it.

But again, how would the bonuses work otherwise? You seem to insist that testing is the best way to evaluate a teacher, and we can't be bothered doing it any other way? You can't seem to even come up with a solution.

[Aksannyi]

Just as an aside, the FCAT doesn't exist anymore Salodin. It's now the FSA. I've never taken the FCAT because I moved here when I was 29 and so I don't really know what the difference is, but I've been told by people in the field that FSA is better. I just don't know in which ways.

[Salodin]

Nah, I'm not against walk throughs. They're just dandy.

If you're concerned about language on the tests, isn't that part of the test themselves? If they don't know a specific word, then the expectation is they infer its meaning from the sentence or article. Over to the sciences/math, there's no reason to think your problems are better then a standardized test unless your math is somehow different than the rest of the world. So, aside from language in which part of the difficulty is looking at words they might not be familiar with, the standardized test is exactly what you want to do, just not graded by you.

Teachers do cheat, but you used the example of teaching to the test, I'm just responding that a similar concern would happen if your ideas were implemented. I don't know how CA administers its tests, but when I took the FCAT there were always two supervisors in the room to discourage that behavior I'm assuming. The same wouldn't happen with your system.

I haven't offered an alternative because I'm typing our convo on a phone and you haven't asked lol. It isn't a small policy change that I'd want. I'd first want to remove the rules where school funding is based on standardized testing results, that's bullshit and needs to stop. I'd keep the bonus system that's currently based on points, but I would lower the amount of points required to reach your bonus (to reach the top tier is near impossible with out being butt buddies with your AP and principal). In Florida, teachers need to attend a certain number of workshops in order to renew their certificate after a certain amount of time, the number of workshops being based on how many points they're worth; I'd also make them count toward your bonus too (most currently do not). I'd increase the number of workshops available to keep teaching staff up to date on current information and teaching methods; more training is always a good thing. Lastly, I'd make extracurricular activities give points towards the bonus too, like after school fundraisers and book sales for example. Teachers are expected to show up to these but are never compensated for their time. Finally, I'd make standardized test scores add to that bonus pool, but only modestly so as not to encourage unscrupulous behavior.

Last I checked, the top tier bonus was worth $4k, and a new teacher starts just over $40k. A 10% bonus is pretty fair imo for 10 months of typical teacher work, especially for work they're already doing. In my dream world teachers would have a higher salary, but I'd probably keep the cap on the bonus the same; these are public funds after all lol.

[Salodin]

Just as an aside, the FCAT doesn't exist anymore Salodin. It's now the FSA. I've never taken the FCAT because I moved here when I was 29 and so I don't really know what the difference is, but I've been told by people in the field that FSA is better. I just don't know in which ways.

Right, it was ended very recently. The concept of a standardized test still exists though. No one cares what you call it if all the same things are still affected by it.

[Aksannyi]

I just wasn't sure if you were aware.

[Ksandra]

Bumping this to spread the word on a petition going (not sure how well it'll work).

https://actions.sumofus.org/a/social...6727&source=fb

in 2015 Congress was introduced a bill to change the way SS works for retired teachers. (It seems nothing has happened to the bill yet.)

To give a summary of what happens:

Teachers do not pay into SS, but pay money into a pension account which they will get when they retire.

Teachers are not eligible to receive SS benefits from their spouses when said spouse passes away. In CA (not sure other states, but some are worse for sure) if I pass away after retirement my husband would get at most ~$6k from my pension regardless of the balance left.

However, many (most?) teachers paid into SS in various other jobs they had before entering the teaching profession. The WEP act prevents teachers from receiving their full benefits they are owed from SS for the years they worked.

The bill is to try and balance this a little better.

To give a specific example: My mom is retiring at the end of this school year. She is entitled to a $2600 a month pension (will be taxed). She does not receive SS from my late father. She found out this past week that she is entitled to ~$600 a month in SS for her years paying into it, but they are only giving her $200 a month.

People complain a lot about teachers not retiring when they should, but this is a major reason why they feel they can't afford to retire. If you think more need to, then please sign the bill to make it a better retirement for teachers so they are more willing to leave when it is time.

On a note: This bill would also help police officers, firefighters, etc. as they are also under similar restrictions.

[Drai]

I feel it's pretty retarded to not receive full benefits from something you've payed into for X number of years, and I honestly thought Teachers pensions were much better then that, though I suppose having that combined with RRSP's and such wouldn't be so bad, but still $2600 seems on the low side to me

[Ksandra]

I feel it's pretty retarded to not receive full benefits from something you've payed into for X number of years, and I honestly thought Teachers pensions were much better then that, though I suppose having that combined with RRSP's and such wouldn't be so bad, but still $2600 seems on the low side to me

CT is really bad in general about the teacher pensions, but my mom's is technically on the lower side anyway because she doesn't get the full pension. To get your full pension you need to work 30 straight years of teaching. My mom worked as a teacher's aide when my sister and I were young thinking that was a better situation for the family since she didn't have to devote time to lesson planning etc. (despite having a cert to teach English). When I was in 3rd grade she became a special ed teacher since we were older. So she is retiring after 20 years working instead of 30. She is 66. In order to receive her full pension she would have to work until she's 76. It should be that all those years paying into SS before going into teaching would balance out her lower pension, but nope. Luckily for her, the house is paid off and she has no debt whatsoever. But you know that's not going to be the case for a lot of people out there, so yes many are working past their prime because they feel they can't afford to retire.

[Ragnus]

Why / how has it become an American tradition to treat teachers like garbage?

[Ksandra]

Why / how has it become an American tradition to treat teachers like garbage?

Republicans don't want to pay for public schools, and they have created a very successful campaign of throwing a lot of terrible rules and regulations on the public schools and then blaming the teachers for not performing.

If people think public schools are bad and the teachers are bad then it helps to push the private school voucher shit they've been peddling for years.


Democrats are also not blameless because while they often say "oh poor teachers" they really do squat to actually try and help them.

[Ragnus]

I'd like to say that I'm surprised that the same tactics used against the female workforce after WW2 is working here, but I can't.

[Ayn]

I once read someone that posted a pretty eloquent response (sorry, the source slips my mind), but the main idea was "Because everyone has gone through the education system and gone to school, they automatically assume that they know how to teach and what's best, and that's problematic."

I teach, but not in K-12 (have worked with them in other capacities) and you could not pay me enough to deal with the bullshit. The sad part is that many teachers I've talked with seem more worn down by the general attitude and resentment towards educators than the job itself (that can be draining too).

There are certainly elements of education and teacher training that need reform, but it gets me that society simultaneously puts teachers on a pedestal and shits on them at the same time, then turns around and wonders "Why is there a shortage of teachers in <x> area"?

[Ksandra]

LA teachers set to strike on Monday: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna957966

They’ve been threatening for years, but I actually believe this will go through this time.

I am saddened that charters seem to be a point of contention for the union. Like I get it, but you want smaller class sizes while also shutting down schools so.... (-.-);____..|.

[arus2001]

Yeah, we've smaller schools closing around here to consolidate, basically turning into kids having hour+ long bus rides one way each day. Then we've got superintendents and such taking pay raises from those closed schools finances while the consolidated areas are a dumpster fire with overfilled classes, bad teachers, etc. and it's just all sorts of wtf.

[Salodin]

Charter schools suck anyways. Put that money back into actual public schools.

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[synistar]

I don't blame the teachers fighting for full support staffing (nurses, counselors, and librarians) and smaller class sizes. I do think teachers are asking a bit too much with the 6.5% retroactive pay increase when the district offered 2 annual increases at 3% per year.

[Gredival]

Charter schools suck anyways. Put that money back into actual public schools.

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Yeah the problem isn't that charter schools are bad perse, it's that they are used insidiously to try undercut the public school system by the GOP because they prove the free market works. And in reality, charters don't do much better. Achievement tracks along socioeconomic lines. Rich areas don't need charters because their public schools are well funded, or they send their kids to super elite schools... in the case of LAUSD that would be Harvard Westlake and Polytechnic.

[Ksandra]

In CA the money follows the students, and charters get less.. I do understand the frustrations, and there are a fuckton of shitty ones out there that need regulations, but if LA were to shut down them all tomorrow, it would solve none of their problems.