Feminist Philosophy

[Kuya]

In my honest opinion, as an African-American male, I'd say the Feminist agenda (Third Wave) really has no focus at all in this age. First Wave Feminism had the ultimate goal of women's suffrage, which they ultimately won, but took a while in other countries. Second Wave Feminism had the ultimate agenda to break down a sexist power structure that placed men in higher positions in most, if not all forms of the workplace. They also tackled the issues of sexuality, prostitution, pornography, and abortion, as well as intra-familial rape. To be honest, we are still watching this Wave of Feminism right now in real time.

To that end, what really is the real goal of Third Wave Feminism? What purpose does it really serve? It's already a stretch that they extend their current agenda to the LGBT community, as the focus no longer is a woman's rights agenda (unless of course people in the LGBT community identify as female). You then have feminists taking this to cyber arena of the Internet. There's way too many distractions and grandstanding in this Wave of feminism to even have a focused agenda at all. In my opinion there's really no need for it, and feminists should be furthering the agendas of their mothers and grandmothers before them as there's still room to grow. The glass ceiling still exists in the workplace, rape and abortion are still hot topics. Why deviate from these problems?

Some people in LGBT activism and academia feel that some problems LGBT people face has something to do with gender. Particularly, gender deviations from the norm are the most noticeable and the most attacked. Since feminists work in the arena of gender, some LGBT activists tend to work with common ground on that topic.

[Sho]

Some people in LGBT activism and academia feel that some problems LGBT people face has something to do with gender. Particularly, gender deviations from the norm are the most noticeable and the most attacked. Since feminists work in the arena of gender, some LGBT activists tend to work with common ground on that topic.

If that's the case then I think it's awesome to tackle said problem, and take back my slight. It's really sad that we are into the 21st century and we are still addressing the issues of not only sexism, but also of discrimination against the LGBT community. However, for new age feminists, is this really their main agenda? If so, I do hope the embrace what LGBT activists fight for and the LGBT community embrace feminism. However, I guess I feel as the feminist movement and LGBT activism reach an intersection, it is no longer is a "feminist" agenda, just a different way of viewing both female and male rights.

Hope that makes sense.

[Kuya]

If that's the case then I think it's awesome to tackle said problem, and take back my slight. It's really sad that we are into the 21st century and we are still addressing the issues of not only sexism, but also of discrimination against the LGBT community. However, for new age feminists, is this really their main agenda? If so, I do hope the embrace what LGBT activists fight for and the LGBT community embrace feminism. However, I guess I feel as the feminist movement and LGBT activism reach an intersection, it is no longer is a "feminist" agenda, just a different way of viewing both female and male rights.

Hope that makes sense.

I'm not sure. New age feminists is a very broad category and i'm not quite sure what kind of feminist falls into that category.

I know that i tend to like working with pragmatic feminists. I tend to dislike highly ideological radfems who refuse to work with the government and i also dislike internet activists who spend their days tweeting and that's about it.

While there are intersections, i think it still remains simultaniously an LGBT and a feminist issue. For example, right now, we are working to implement a gender equality curricula in public schools in Puerto Rico. The feminist organizations that form part of our collective want to the curricula specifically to dispel gender/sex stereotypes and to help stem the wave of gendered violence in the island. The LGBT orgs in the colective want the curiculla because it includes components directed towards creating tolerance towards people of diverse genders and sexual orientations regarless of whether we're talking about feminine woman or a an effeminate man.

The feminist orgs have their own agenda and we have our own but we decided to collaborate on this specific project since we felt our agendas were aligned and we both saw benefit for our respective populations.

Of course, it started out as collaboration, but it has developed into an alliance where feminists support LGBT causes even if they see no immediate benefit and we support feminist causes even if it doesn't directly affect us.

I'm not sure how it works in the US, but in Puerto Rico, it's a very strong alliance. Maybe it just made sense since the homophobe is usually also a sexist.

[hey]

In my honest opinion, as an African-American male, I'd say the Feminist agenda (Third Wave) really has no focus at all in this age. First Wave Feminism had the ultimate goal of women's suffrage, which they ultimately won, but took a while in other countries. Second Wave Feminism had the ultimate agenda to break down a sexist power structure that placed men in higher positions in most, if not all forms of the workplace. They also tackled the issues of sexuality, prostitution, pornography, and abortion, as well as intra-familial rape. To be honest, we are still watching this Wave of Feminism right now in real time.

To that end, what really is the real goal of Third Wave Feminism? What purpose does it really serve? It's already a stretch that they extend their current agenda to the LGBT community, as the focus no longer is a woman's rights agenda (unless of course people in the LGBT community identify as female). You then have feminists taking this to cyber arena of the Internet. There's way too many distractions and grandstanding in this Wave of feminism to even have a focused agenda at all. In my opinion there's really no need for it, and feminists should be furthering the agendas of their mothers and grandmothers before them as there's still room to grow. The glass ceiling still exists in the workplace, rape and abortion are still hot topics. Why deviate from these problems?

Going after one symptom after another makes no sense. The goal is to work on fixing the root cause of so many problems, for many different people.

[Meresgi]

So watching Co-Optional Podcast and they brought up a good point in terms of video games. Why is it not a huge thing when the chick in Far Cry 3 rapes you as the main character? Or in Fear when the Spooky ghost chick rapes you so you can give her a baby?

[Kuya]

Because there aren't any male equivalents of feminist organizations that sound the alarm on these things. In large part, many men either don't think they have problems relating to discrimination against men or when they do, they blame women or feminism in general. Too many men think it's not rape if a woman does it to you and that you should be so lucky that you got laid so easily. Male victims of female rape probably do not want to talk about it either for fear of being shamed from simply complaining about it. Dude might even get the gay accusation thrown at him for saying anything.

[hey]

So watching Co-Optional Podcast and they brought up a good point in terms of video games. Why is it not a huge thing when the chick in Far Cry 3 rapes you as the main character? Or in Fear when the Spooky ghost chick rapes you so you can give her a baby?

Because mras are slacking.

Or are you making a feminism should focus on men argument?

[Meresgi]

Because mras are slacking.

Or are you making a feminism should focus on men argument?

Focus? no, bring it up? Yeah. Rape is rape.

Also had no idea what a mra was, thank you urban dictionary lol

[Sho]

Going after one symptom after another makes no sense. The goal is to work on fixing the root cause of so many problems, for many different people.

Right and I agree wholeheartedly.

I was just wondering if it ceases to be a feminist agenda altogether for a more broad agenda that encompasses both genders and it's various deviations. From there, I strongly believe that the new age feminism really has no absolute definition right now that seeks to solidify itself. It's because of this reason one could guess that's why people don't take feminists seriously, or see them all as radicals hoping to force their radical ideals on them. Kuya said it more eloquently -- you really see a lot of these non-radical feminists these days do this -- claim something they stand for and tweet about it, post on Facebook or argue on Reddit, and call it a day. I would venture on to say that the way things are going it's more of a fad now to be a feminist than it is an activist. It's just another distraction that hurts people who are really fighting for the cause.

Reading again from Kuya's post just proves another instance where LGBT activism and feminism have common goals and common enemies while having separate agendas to push (equality for feminists, tolerance for LGBT activism). These types of efforts should really should be seen as a completely new type of activism, which is neither LGBT or feminism.

[Aksannyi]

The thing is, there's nothing inherently wrong with tweeting about it or sharing the latest feminist blog post that defines a strong position. For some, that may be all they are actually capable of doing - perhaps younger people who don't have an income for going out and lobbying. Therefore, spreading the word on social media is what they do, armchair activism, you call it. But there is a thing as raising awareness. Personally, as much as I'd love to pack up everything and go lobby for the feminist cause, my income and my dedication to my education limits me. When given the opportunity, I do what I can, but if all I can do on a given day is help raise awareness of some issue that should be attended to, no matter how insignificant it may seem, championing people to the cause can be effective.

For any who are unaware at this point, I'm not an anti-men feminist, and I actively look down upon misandrists when they shit up what feminists are trying to achieve. I'm not in it for taking rights away from men, I just want to be on equal ground. I also fight for the rights of all people, including men. Patriarchal values are harmful to both, not just women. Rape culture affects men and women. I don't want to live in a matriarchy, but I also don't want to live in a patriarchy.

[hey]

Kuya said it more eloquently -- you really see a lot of these non-radical feminists these days do this -- claim something they stand for and tweet about it, post on Facebook or argue on Reddit, and call it a day. It's just another distraction that hurts people who are really fighting for the cause.

No because that IS really fighting for the cause. The root cause of most problems that feminism wishes to fight are not caused by the evil republicans, that can only be fought with lobbying and politics. No, it is a cultural problem that affects everyone. The only way to fix that is with education and talking about the things that cause problems, so we can better understand, and work to improve how we treat people. The problem is that society (the patriarchy) has ingrained in us ideas that we do not even realize are so harmful. There is MUCH more to it than just access to abortions, equal pay, and gay marriage.

[Kuya]

Fyi: while i am very involved in lgbt activism, i do it pro bono. So for the most part i have to use whatever free time i have to work with it. Technically speaking my area is social media since i administrate de social media accounts and serve as liason with the news media at times. Currently i am also serving as liaison with a local trans group to collaborate with a birth certificate sex change bill in the house of reps. I do have a full time job too, go to the gym 5 times a week and got a bf.

While i'm not saying everyone can be active in activism beyond just posting on the internet, it's at least worth testing how much time you can give. I know some of our members assist to our reunions occasionally and serve as links to other orgs. Orhers show up occasionally to our activities. Other make memes or write articles for us on their free time. Others we send to the capital to speak to legislators. There's a lot you can do. I know when i started i wasn't really sure how i could help but it was just a matter of seeing what i was good at and putting it to practice.

[wipers]

The problem with activism is that most people don't care about these issues. You are fighting a losing battle. But far be it from me to stop you from waging war on the "patriarchy"

[Thunder]

No because that IS really fighting for the cause. The root cause of most problems that feminism wishes to fight are not caused by the evil republicans, that can only be fought with lobbying and politics. No, it is a cultural problem that affects everyone. The only way to fix that is with education and talking about the things that cause problems, so we can better understand, and work to improve how we treat people. The problem is that society (the patriarchy) has ingrained in us ideas that we do not even realize are so harmful. There is MUCH more to it than just access to abortions, equal pay, and gay marriage.

*this post isn't as much about feminism as it is about marketing*

1) if you do a lot of sharing on facebook, tweeting, etc... marketers will jump on the ship (and have already) of "this stuff gets clicks" and before long you've got more sensational articles/stories that are making feminism look absolutely retarded because THAT gets more "clicks" than actual "cultural problems that affect everyone". It's the same thing with Ferguson where you've got things that are making protesters look really bad

2) There's an entire industry of people who do nothing 9-5 besides collect data on what gets the most clicks so that they can maximize advertizing (which = money, literally). 100% of the things that get the most clicks is stuff you don't want entered into your head (9 places you didn't know amanda bynes puked in, beiber photoshopped?, kanye west MELTDOWN, this mother has abs and 0 excuses, movie promotes rape?, video game that promotes rape?). They're all headlines/adverts designed to take your attention and keep it going through a labyrinth of clicks. Your stories can't compete with that and so the ONLY market "important stories to feminsm" are hitting are the warm markets who have more-than-average interest in clicking it - like the people like you or others in this thread that already know and try(?) to promote change. But cold market is too busy being zombies in click bait mazes

Hell, you've got a market for FAKE news. That's right, somebody figured out you get a sustainable (and pretty high) revenue from advertizes by pushing out FAKE news and call it satire



And here's a more in-depth explanation why some people want more out of "just sharing, retweeting" and it comes from an idea that most people involved in "clicks" like sharing, retweeting, etc are doing it for the hope of change and never getting around to actual change OR even remembering what they shared/retweeted in a few hours, let alone months/years.

I can't get this point across better than a story where someone created some 7-9 disc DVD set about self development and sold it for a large amount of money. They sold a few hundred immediately and in ~6 weeks had <5 complaints of DVDs #3, 4, 5, 6, 7 etc were blank. No problem, he got it handled, reshipped the ones that were blank for free, it's all good, mistakes on that level of production might happen. But he checked and ALL shipments had the first 2 dvds and then the rest were blank. Completely by accident, but only <1% of people called.

The point of that story is that.. even if you get people's eyes on your stuff about "change" they wont do it. But they sure do FLOCK to the hope of change. Real change is hard though, it's scary, and most people really wont get around to doing anything about it - even if you tell them exactly what needs to be done. That's why some people (like me) have the opinion that promoting things on facebook/twitter is spreading a do-nothing message that's turning more and more people into armchair activists that will rally, rant, and rave about something, get some good emotions from that, and then do nothing concrete about it. Our brains want those little dopamine rushes and I'm willing to bet in our media-overloaded world most of the "feminists" are just addicted to the stories/tweets/etc and they become insight-junkies who look for new injustice, new direction for finger pointing, etc INSTEAD OF implementing ideas. I know (with data & #s behind it) that ~90% of people in self development/help/etc don't do shit besides click on a video (don't watch whole thing) or buy a book (and not read it past 1st chapter).. and feminism doesn't even push action half as much as the self-help things do

Here's a silly video adam carolla does on "Moral Satiation" it's just 4:30 min long and he's a comedian so it's not too hard to listen to lol

[Thunder]

Shit, that's an ugly ass post; I usually spend more time editing so it's easier to read but I was confident in my 10 minute spur of the moment flow. I'll love anyone to death anyone who actually goes through it

[RKenshin]

Continuing convo from the thread on abortion -

You can support women's rights without supporting specific women or organizations associated to the women's rights movement for various reasons. It is weird, however, to think that you support women's rights but do not support the movement that specifically fights to protect those rights. How does one expect women's rights to be protected if not by groups who are specifically designed to do just that?

I don’t not support feminism; I do support the core of the movement. I’m probably playing more devils advocate than anything – and I understand your point.

I just don’t agree with it being a bad thing to support the core of a movement, but not every argument it has come to (potentially) represent – and thereby wishing to keep your beliefs separate from the label.

For example, how does one say they support the right of blacks to vote, but they do not support movements that seek to grant voting rights to black? Or, how can one say they support equal rights for LGBT people but do not support the movement that seeks to obtain equal rights for LGBT people? Exactly, how does one propose we protect women's rights without women's rights organizations who are usually feminist?

Just as easy as someone can say they're opposed to police brutality against blacks but don't support the Black Panther party. And before it happens, no, I'm not saying that group is comparable to feminism at all, this is admittedly an extreme example.

That said, the point I'm making is along the same lines of this discussion - supporting the core principle of a group, but not everything they stand for in the current political/social/media landscape.

Likewise, being critical of the feminist women is fine and does not make you pro-life, but let's not confuse who I am talking about. If you are perfectly capable of being critical of the feminist movement and pointing out things you do not like while also being able to point out things you support and agree with, such as abortion rights, then I am not talking about you. If, however, you feel that feminism is an authoritarian anti-men movement that has no relevance to women's rights today (while you simultaneously pay lip service to women's rights) then yes, i am talking about you.

Fair enough, and I agree with that. Tarnishing the entire movement because of the bad behavior of the few/extremists is unfair and actually hurts both sides of this argument.

So yes, you can like that feminism defends abortion rights, but dislike that feminism engenders shrill harpies in tumblr (i would say that has more to do with the internet culture than anything else). I also take issue with the broad generalizations you are making about housewives, sex negative, sex positive and gamergate. There's plenty of division between feminists about these topics and you should take great care to not only read from feminists that you don't agree with. In the case of gamergate though, I feel (and i know i personally felt) that the movement has a anti-feminist following, but far be it for me to say that all gamers are misogynist (me being a gamer) much less do i think other feminists who are gamers would think that all gamers are misogynists.

Just the fact that there is interfighting among feminists on those broad generalizations can be enough to deter people from having the label attached to their name, just because they’d rather not have any association with it. Somewhat similar to how people who really are concerned/passionate about ethics in gamer journalism may avoid saying they support gamergate – because the movement itself has too many other negative connotations with it. I don't believe feminism is that far damaged, just to clarify, but it is suffering from a much lesser degree of similar problems (extremists attempting to misdirect efforts).

I’ve stopped calling myself a Democrat for similar reasons, because while I agree with a lot of their points/desires I also disagree with some – and I’d rather be my own person on my issues than fall under the broad generalizations of a label.

That's kind of the issue i'm complaining about here. When muslim terrorists attack a magazine in Paris, some people might see this as a fault inherent in islam, and others might see it as one group within islam rather than a representative of the entire movement. Similarly, i'd ask posters here to take great care in not only reading from feminists they already disagree with rather than finding feminists who they have common ground with. Admittedly though, the environment in this forum has been self selecting because we've mostly had an entire topic dedicated to finding, copying and posting every negative example of feminism one can find\. So if that's your exposure to feminism, i can't say i'm shocked you feel that way.

I think the issue in this forum has been, that there is a group of posters who really hate feminism, and another, larger group of people who are largely indifferent to the topic. You get the anti-feminists who seek out examples of nasty feminists and they collect all of this in a single thread. It should not surprise anyone that those who are indifferent might get a negative impression of feminism if that's ultimately what they're exposed to. It's an echo chamber of sorts.

I get your concern, and yeah I see what you mean about the echo chamber. I’m by no means supporting that or the anti-feminism sentiments that float around here (though it seems to have gotten better lately, at least).

[Aksannyi]

This is towards Thunder's post, just don't wanna quote that whole thing.

But you also have to realize that the same people who get involved in this so-called "armchair activism" also can do things like challenge people who use or reinforce patriarchal stereotypes, and explain why a line of thinking is problematic. Challenging the way people think and act toward others isn't just a Facebook thing. I regularly call people out on their sexist bullshit if I see it. Challenging everyday sexism is something that also has to be done, and I don't have to picket in Washington to do it.

It takes more than just legal change, as has been said. We do need to challenge the way people think and view others. That starts at home, at school, at work, etc. Not teaching our kids the internalized patriarchal values under which most (if not all) of us grew up under. That's the sort of thing that will promote real change, in addition to the people vocally and adamantly lobbying for it.

[Mazmaz]

*this post isn't as much about feminism as it is about marketing*

1) if you do a lot of sharing on facebook, tweeting, etc... marketers will jump on the ship (and have already) of "this stuff gets clicks" and before long you've got more sensational articles/stories that are making feminism look absolutely retarded because THAT gets more "clicks" than actual "cultural problems that affect everyone". It's the same thing with Ferguson where you've got things that are making protesters look really bad

2) There's an entire industry of people who do nothing 9-5 besides collect data on what gets the most clicks so that they can maximize advertizing (which = money, literally). 100% of the things that get the most clicks is stuff you don't want entered into your head (9 places you didn't know amanda bynes puked in, beiber photoshopped?, kanye west MELTDOWN, this mother has abs and 0 excuses, movie promotes rape?, video game that promotes rape?). They're all headlines/adverts designed to take your attention and keep it going through a labyrinth of clicks. Your stories can't compete with that and so the ONLY market "important stories to feminsm" are hitting are the warm markets who have more-than-average interest in clicking it - like the people like you or others in this thread that already know and try(?) to promote change. But cold market is too busy being zombies in click bait mazes

Hell, you've got a market for FAKE news. That's right, somebody figured out you get a sustainable (and pretty high) revenue from advertizes by pushing out FAKE news and call it satire



And here's a more in-depth explanation why some people want more out of "just sharing, retweeting" and it comes from an idea that most people involved in "clicks" like sharing, retweeting, etc are doing it for the hope of change and never getting around to actual change OR even remembering what they shared/retweeted in a few hours, let alone months/years.

I can't get this point across better than a story where someone created some 7-9 disc DVD set about self development and sold it for a large amount of money. They sold a few hundred immediately and in ~6 weeks had <5 complaints of DVDs #3, 4, 5, 6, 7 etc were blank. No problem, he got it handled, reshipped the ones that were blank for free, it's all good, mistakes on that level of production might happen. But he checked and ALL shipments had the first 2 dvds and then the rest were blank. Completely by accident, but only <1% of people called.

The point of that story is that.. even if you get people's eyes on your stuff about "change" they wont do it. But they sure do FLOCK to the hope of change. Real change is hard though, it's scary, and most people really wont get around to doing anything about it - even if you tell them exactly what needs to be done. That's why some people (like me) have the opinion that promoting things on facebook/twitter is spreading a do-nothing message that's turning more and more people into armchair activists that will rally, rant, and rave about something, get some good emotions from that, and then do nothing concrete about it. Our brains want those little dopamine rushes and I'm willing to bet in our media-overloaded world most of the "feminists" are just addicted to the stories/tweets/etc and they become insight-junkies who look for new injustice, new direction for finger pointing, etc INSTEAD OF implementing ideas. I know (with data & #s behind it) that ~90% of people in self development/help/etc don't do shit besides click on a video (don't watch whole thing) or buy a book (and not read it past 1st chapter).. and feminism doesn't even push action half as much as the self-help things do

I really don't know what you're getting at, but raising awareness does have an impact. Feminism isn't necessarily just activism, but a set of principles. If the number of people who hold those principles increases due to the "marketing" that you're talking about, they're raise a new generation that would hold values of equality that we want to perpetuate through society.

[Kuya]

No because that IS really fighting for the cause. The root cause of most problems that feminism wishes to fight are not caused by the evil republicans, that can only be fought with lobbying and politics. No, it is a cultural problem that affects everyone. The only way to fix that is with education and talking about the things that cause problems, so we can better understand, and work to improve how we treat people. The problem is that society (the patriarchy) has ingrained in us ideas that we do not even realize are so harmful. There is MUCH more to it than just access to abortions, equal pay, and gay marriage.

While education is certainly part of an all encompassing activist strategy, i should note that education should go beyond random individuals posting things in social media. For greater effect education needs to encompass public relations campaign that involves tv, radio, and news paper. Not just that but it needs to include public performances and metrics by which to judge the effectiveness of said campaign.

Sometimes this even includes the education within one's own community.

In other words, for greater effect, it should be coordinated.

[Thunder]

This is towards Thunder's post, just don't wanna quote that whole thing.

But you also have to realize that the same people who get involved in this so-called "armchair activism" also can do things like challenge people who use or reinforce patriarchal stereotypes, and explain why a line of thinking is problematic. Challenging the way people think and act toward others isn't just a Facebook thing. I regularly call people out on their sexist bullshit if I see it. Challenging everyday sexism is something that also has to be done, and I don't have to picket in Washington to do it.

When you/others call people out is it as aggressive as it sounds? Like, I'm not convinced "armchair activism" raises as much good awareness as it does bad awareness through people being condescending, "you fuckin' idiot", "you scumbag racist/sexist/rapist that's not true", "you're d e t a c h e d from reality!" and aligning people against the very position that's trying to be educational

Education is hard and I really doubt I'm just missing ALL of the people on FB who are patient enough to really try and educate someone instead of almost immediately throwing their arms up in the air, furrowing their brows, or facepalming a bit, and then calling them retarded

It takes more than just legal change, as has been said. We do need to challenge the way people think and view others. That starts at home, at school, at work, etc. Not teaching our kids the internalized patriarchal values under which most (if not all) of us grew up under. That's the sort of thing that will promote real change, in addition to the people vocally and adamantly lobbying for it.

don't disagree

I really don't know what you're getting at, but raising awareness does have an impact. Feminism isn't necessarily just activism, but a set of principles. If the number of people who hold those principles increases due to the "marketing" that you're talking about, they're raise a new generation that would hold values of equality that we want to perpetuate through society.

There's a little irony in starting a response with "I really don't know what you're getting at" and then continuing on anyway lol. All good though

The problem is that "if" statement I bolded - I don't think it's true. What I tried to explain (albeit in a shitty way, I wouldn't have posted if I took the time to reread it) was that the "marketing" is basically targeting the people who already hold those views, so getting "new" eyeballs is tougher than it would if strategies were more planned out and more action taken - and that, maybe, the people whose eyeballs are new end up getting alienated from the cause at a faster rate than being educated by the cause.