Feminist Philosophy

[Andalusian girls]

you guys are very bad at doing that

taking offense to people taking offense at trivial things gives these people and their trivial causes far more notoriety than they would otherwise be capable of achieving

[Andalusian girls]

offensception

[Gredival]

Social media allows one person who gets annoyed by a nonexistent offense to be retweeted and upvoted until it pops onto clickbait articles giving a voice to something that never would have come up. This is the future welcome to it, it's not going away.

It's the online vicim-politics version of Fox News and the Tea Party. They create an echo chamber where they disproportionately attract only similarly minded individuals such that all they hear is reinforcement for their own point of view. Then they descend like on a mob when one person points out an aberration that must be eliminated.

Extremism always exists; every ideology and belief is subject to it. But the internet makes it 10x worse. And worst of all, is that the radicals don't effect change, they just give a bad name.

To continue with my analogy, it's like how the Tea Party is tainting the Republican party in general by making the moderates run in abject terror.

I don't see why that should matter. The variant cover is part of a series of variant covers across DC comics featuring the Joker. The covers are suppose to be related to the Joker not the current run of a series.

The issue is that they felt it undid what they were trying to do with the character.

It's not to say we can't acknowledge the Killing Joke, and it's obviously super relevant whenever the issue is Batgirl and the Joker. But the current writers felt the focus on the trauma was misplaced.

During Gail Simone's run with Batgirl, they were very meticulous in the way they handled Batgirl's recovery from the trauma and ensuing PTSD. Yes she was victimized by the Joker, but the point was that she came out of it a survivor.

And that too is not to say you can't portray women as vulnerable in comics, but that in this particular instance to make Batgirl nothing but the Joker's victim was antithetical to where they had been taking the character.

If you haven't read Simone's run of Batgirl it might be hard to understand. So here's another example.

When Tomb Raider's reboot came out, you got tons of feminists complaining about how it reduced Lara from a strong female explorer to a sniveling mess. But it had to happen that way because that game was an origin story; it was about Lara before she was the Tomb Raider. She grows up through the game, and she transforms into a survivor. And ultimately, portraying that very human journey isn't misogynist at all. To focus on the first hours of the game when she's, understandably, a wreck and to say it's just another portrayal of female weakness is to miss the point. The whole rest of the game is about how she becomes stronger than everyone else.

By the same token, to focus the Killing Joke on the trauma is misplaced. As the continuity is now, where New 52 Batgirl has focused on her overcoming her trauma, is to give the story as it exists now an unfair shake.

(BTW, the last time I got into an argument about the TR reboot, the person I was debating had to come to admit that it wasn't misogynist per se to portray Lara as weak in the time before she became the kick ass explorer... but then argued that there was a problem with how female characters had to have a prequel that focuses on a "human" journey to become a badass yet you never get pre-badass origin stories for major male leads. Until the industry is equal, there will always be something to point at.)

[Charismatic]

but then argued that there was a problem with how female characters had to have a prequel that focuses on a "human" journey to become a badass yet you never get pre-badass origin stories for major male leads.

You are arguing with a person who has never heard of Metal Gear Solid 3. They don't even play video games, do they?

I mean, Christ.

[Stilzkin]

The issue is that they felt it undid what they were trying to do with the character.

I'm saying the variant cover is being done for reasons outside the series it is a cover for. The cover isn't about Batgirl, the cover is about the Joker.

The cover was focusing on how horrible a villain the Joker is. How Batgirl has managed to overcome what he did to her is something that says something about Batgirl not the Joker.

It's like saying that that artists are not allowed to do a picture of the Joker killing Todd without including something that shows how the Batman family has managed to overcome that grief.

Artists should be able to focus on any part of the story as necessary. We can't just talk about how characters have been able to overcome trauma and forbid any talk of what that actual trauma is or how it made them feel at the time.

[Gredival]

I'm saying the variant cover is being done for reasons outside the series it is a cover for. The cover isn't about Batgirl, the cover is about the Joker.

The cover was focusing on how horrible a villain the Joker is. How Batgirl has managed to overcome what he did to her is something that says something about Batgirl not the Joker.

It's like saying that that artists are not allowed to do a picture of the Joker killing Todd without including something that shows how the Batman family has managed to overcome that grief.

Artists should be able to focus on any part of the story as necessary. We can't just talk about how characters have been able to overcome trauma and forbid any talk of what that actual trauma is or how it made them feel at the time.

Yes the variant is about the Joker, but the artist obviously did something reminiscent of the Killing Joke because the cover isn't JUST about the Joker. So insofar as the cover involves Batgirl, who is still the focus of the comic within, the team with creative control over Batgirl, it's fair for them to have a say. Remember that the artist himself is the one who requested the cover be pulled.

I think your comparison is disingenuous because the rest of the Batman family is not in fact portrayed that way. When Jason Todd came back, what was the focus of the story? His vengeance. What was the focus on Bruce? His decisions regarding not killing the Joker. When we look back at the murder of Jason Todd (not when it actually happened) characters were never portrayed merely as victims of the Joker. It's never mere grief.

In a situation where the last few years of the Batgirl comic has focused on her journey forward, the authors this variant put the spotlight on the wrong part of history of the Killing Joke.

And that's not to say rape and sexual violence should be offlimits in comics. But however many years later, after we have had a few years of the Batgirl comic focusing solely on her empowerment after the Killing Joke, to have a cover that reduces Batgirl only to a victim can be considered poor taste. It's not just about the fact that Batgirl is vulnerable, like in the comparison covers that were brought up by someone else in the post. It's not just about her crying. It's the fact that the "creepiness" of the cover depends entirely on the implicit subtext of the sexual assault. We've seen male superheroes cry before; we don't see them crying because they are the captive of someone who sexually violated them.

[Stilzkin]

Yes the variant is about the Joker, but the artist obviously did something reminiscent of the Killing Joke because the cover isn't JUST about the Joker. So insofar as the cover involves Batgirl, who is still the focus of the comic within, the team with creative control over Batgirl, it's fair for them to have a say. Remember that the artist himself is the one who requested the cover be pulled.

It obviously isn't just about the Joker but it is about him as a character. It isn't a cover that is being particularly forced on to the Batgirl series. It is a part of series of covers across the various DC titles which highlight the Joker character. It would be an incomplete showcase of the character to not show him at his worst and only feature him as a comedic character.

The creative control of the current team isn't being impeded on by the existence of a variant cover. Just about all, if not all, of the Joker variant covers are a deviation from what the series they are being featured on is doing. Superman is starting a new arc so I can't be sure but I imagine the cover of Superman flying with Joker in a wedding gown is tonally different from what the content of that issue is.

The difference with the Batgirl cover is supposed to be that it diverges from the current image the writers are trying to create for Batgirl. I don't see this as being significantly different.

The real fear of this cover is stemming from the display of a female character in a position of weakness. There is no reason to shy away from such depictions. Especially in this case, Batgirl is not a weak female character. Showing vulnerability is not the same as painting a character as weak.

Surely the recent cover of Jimmy Olsen protecting Superman from a gunmen is not degrading to Superman's character.

I think your comparison is disingenuous because the rest of the Batman family is not in fact portrayed that way.

Why use a phrase like "mere victims"? Would it be wrong to have a cover where Todd is once again compromised by the Joker?

In a situation where the last few years of the Batgirl comic has focused on her journey forward, the authors this variant put the spotlight on the wrong part of history of the Killing Joke.

You could say though that Barbara moving forward isn't an essential part of the Joker character. It may be to the current relationship between Batgirl and the Joker, and it is to the Batgirl character, but it doesn't saying anything about the Joker.

But however many years later, after we have had a few years of the Batgirl comic focusing solely on her empowerment after the Killing Joke, to have a cover that reduces Batgirl only to a victim can be considered poor taste. It's not just about the fact that Batgirl is vulnerable, like in the comparison covers that were brought up by someone else in the post. It's not just about her crying. It's the fact that the "creepiness" of the cover depends entirely on the implicit subtext of the sexual assault.

A reminder of her trauma is not the same as a reduction of her character.

The vulnerability and sexual undertones are part of the story in the Killing Joke.

We've seen male superheroes cry before; we don't see them crying because they are the captive of someone who sexually violated them.

I'm not prepared to say that a male character in comics has never cried after being sexually violated.

What occurred to Batgirl is an essential part of her character. It is something that is unique to her story. There is a clear reason why this cover can exist for her character and not for other characters, be they male or female.

[kuronosan]

Guys when we show the Titanic let's not focus on the survivors that were found floating in the water because it's degrading to the life they tried to build afterwards.

[Koul]

Clapping causes anxiety/triggers. Feminist conference moves to jazz hands

[Blubbartron]

Clapping causes anxiety/triggers. Feminist conference moves to jazz hands

Holy shit, I just can't... I don't... Are feminists trolling us? Is that what's going on? That seems like the only plausible explanation.

[Waraji]

I can't even anymore. I know I'm a cis shitlord, but no more clapping? What am I supposed to do next, close my eyes while the presenter is up so as not to trigger further anxiety from eye contact?

[Melena]

[Waraji]

Krieger Jazz Hands

[Juran]

Clapping causes anxiety/triggers. Feminist conference moves to jazz hands

I lol'd. This for real?

[Vandalhart]

Is it triggering because it can sound like a guy fappin?

[Aksannyi]

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen you post.

Considering this thread has become more of "let's make a mockery out of what some feminists do" rather than an actual discussion of how feminists think about and view the world and the quest for gender equality, I'm not sure what its actual purpose is anymore. Perhaps it should be moved out of poopdeck.

[Waraji]

I hardly think it’s what "some feminists do" anymore. I think it used to be that the fringe activists weren’t as prominent, but now all we hear from is the crazies who have hijacked the feminist cause. It’s an image problem that they should fix, but it’s much akin to how Muslims are categorically associated with Terrorists now adays.

[Aksannyi]

I'd argue that it's partially because of two things:

1. The over-saturation of media and social media that has begun to take over our lives, something we've all become familiar with, which takes anything at all and flanderizes it to the point of ridiculousness,
2. "Mens Rights Activists" (not saying anyone here at BG falls under this category, though surely there are a few) who are setting out to actively discredit feminists at every turn, making sure to find every ridiculous thing someone does in the name of feminism to make us all look batshit insane.

[Vandalhart]

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen you post.

Considering this thread has become more of "let's make a mockery out of what some feminists do" rather than an actual discussion of how feminists think about and view the world and the quest for gender equality, I'm not sure what its actual purpose is anymore. Perhaps it should be moved out of poopdeck.

If this is directed at me, please do bear in mind that it was a snarky comment and I'm not being serious. I can't say I understand why it would be triggering to hear applause. Perhaps someone was physically abused and it reminds them of the experience?

I'd argue that it's partially because of two things:

1. The over-saturation of media and social media that has begun to take over our lives, something we've all become familiar with, which takes anything at all and flanderizes it to the point of ridiculousness,
2. "Mens Rights Activists" (not saying anyone here at BG falls under this category, though surely there are a few) who are setting out to actively discredit feminists at every turn, making sure to find every ridiculous thing someone does in the name of feminism to make us all look batshit insane.

For #2, it doesn't help that there is a vocal majority of what seems like opinionated and radical people representing the feminist cause. That's not true for just feminism, just about every group of people have the same problem.

[Melena]

I'm sorry, I really try to be mindful of triggers. But, if clapping is a god damn trigger for you, you should be in fucking therapy to find out why. Let's run down the places where you can hear applause.

1. Any sporting event
2. Movie Theater
3. Out in public
4. On TV
5. Any other kind of Theater
6. Video games
7. The internet

The crazies are seriously making the feminist movement a complete mockery, like just about every other movement going on out there. But then again, there are some feminists out there who think I should carry a giant sign essentially apologizing cause I was born with a cock and therefore could be a walking trigger.