Feminist Philosophy

[Andalusian girls]

I am moved to point out that is is wrong. The melting-pot metaphor is much more literal than that. You don't just dump a bunch of copper and tin into a pot and watch the tin turn to copper, you get an alloy made of both. it's not copper or tin anymore, it's bronze: stronger and more valuable than either independently.

you end up with something new, not just more of the old. that's the melting pot metaphor. You see it in food, too. Like spaghetti and meatballs, or pizza. and languages.

well that's a kinder and more chemically sound way of putting it

[Blubbartron]

I agree that both are changed when integration is finished, but hopefully we can both agree that the thing being melted has to first lose its rigidity in order to be incorporated into the mixture. Mixing never happens if copper comes into the pot and goes "fuck you guys, I'm staying copper."

[Galkaeater]

I can't believe feminist are now trying to ruin one of americas greatest traditions

[Jefe]

It's interesting we use clapping as a way to covey a feeling of approval, excite, and God knows what else. Yet, these fuckers want to stop that?

[Aksannyi]

I don't think anyone is saying clapping should be entirely done away with.

I saw the request earlier to write up a "sane Aks" version of feminism ... I haven't forgotten that request, I've just been dealing with school/class bullshit and I didn't have the time to devote to writing it and compiling things for it, though. Tomorrow or Saturday, most likely. I don't want people to think I'm dipping out at the first sign of conflict. I've just been too busy.

[Darus Grey]

I am moved to point out that is is wrong. The melting-pot metaphor is much more literal than that. You don't just dump a bunch of copper and tin into a pot and watch the tin turn to copper, you get an alloy made of both. it's not copper or tin anymore, it's bronze: stronger and more valuable than either independently.

you end up with something new, not just more of the old. that's the melting pot metaphor. You see it in food, too. Like spaghetti and meatballs, or pizza. and languages.

I appreciate the analogy, but I hate to be the bearer of bad news. Bronze is both less useful and significantly less valuable than pure copper, at least in a modern context.

Bronze is typically 90%~ copper, so you're taking a $4/lb metal and turning it into a $2/lb metal with little utility compared to the copper.

The more pure the copper is, the more valuable it becomes compared to the bronze. I think your analogy supports the opposite conclusion you wanted!

[BaneTheBrawler]

thanks obama

[Andalusian girls]

bronze is way better at killing people tho

[Mazmaz]

rape culture

Spoiler: show

[Koul]

The main one I would like to rebut is you never. EVER. Should accept a drink from someone you just met. Or leave your drink alone. Ever. Ever ever ever. Evereverevereferevedreal;sdfjaelkrjlvjeopruewfvere verervewrerververerevererfter. Actually, I'd probably suggest not drinking anywhere on a first, second mabye even third date. That's just me though, alcohol isn't a big factor in my life. Nor do I need it to relax or open up to someone.

[GoggleHead]

The car accident comparison is kind of shit on account of your insurance rates will usually go up if you're in an accident regardless of whether or not you were at fault.

[Aksannyi]

True, but you also don't have people asking you why you were driving, or why you were on that road, or why you were wearing those shoes, or why you were were in that part of town, or why you didn't have a friend with you, or why you weren't carrying a weapon, etc.

You get normal questions, like how fast you were going, road conditions, etc. But no one acts like it's your fault if you were on a road with a pothole or a drunk driver, you know? But if you're raped, it's automatically your fault for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and not doing enough to prevent it. And then we get treated like bitches for wanting to be safe.

I like the Russian Roulette analogy. You know, statistically, that not all of the chambers have a bullet, and that it's a pretty low percentage of them that actually does. But are you going to take that risk? That's why it irks women when you say not all men are like that. We know that. Statistically, the chances of a man being a rapist are low, but that doesn't mean I'm going to take my chances with it. And I personally do not have the time or the energy to deal with men who get offended by it. I've been sexually harassed and sexually assaulted enough times to be extremely wary of strange men. Sorry. But I'm not sorry.

[RKenshin]

The only thing I disagree with is that "[people] don't get this kind of reaction in other circumstances!" @ the 'well why didn't you take X preventative measure?'

People do that all the time, for lots of things; it's not unique or special to circumstances of rape/abuse. More often than not, if something bad/wrong happens to you, the kneejerk response is very often to question if (if not flat-out assume that) you did something wrong.

In the car accident example, very often one of the first questions you get is who was at fault and a description of the accident (often where people may pass their own judgement on who really was at fault). People actually tend to be extremely critical over driving in particular, ala "well sure he ran a stop sign but you didn't go the speed limit/use your blinker/pay attention/wear your seatbelt so you might've avoided accident/injury if you did that"

If you're obese and develop a medical condition (even if it's not typically related to obesity), the first thing a lot of people will ask/tell you is why don't you try losing weight? Likewise if you smoke, drink too much, etcetcetc.

If your car gets broken into, people ask if you locked your doors, concealed objects of value, locked your glove box, etc. I've actually witnessed 4 different conversations now where people had things stolen from their car and they even admitted to not having their doors locked (which blows my mind, btw), to which others replied "well shit you were asking for it then."

If you get mugged in a dark ally and have over $1,000 in cash on you, people ask you what the heck you were doing in an ally in the dark and why on earth you had $1000 in cash on you.

EDIT: For clarity - I'm not saying any of those are directly comparable to rape or saying that reacting as above is justified/OK - just making the point that it happens in many situations.

I'll certainly agree it happens more often with rape than with other situations, and it is certainly a more serious issue to be criticized on whether you were raped vs criticized on whether you were at fault for a fender bender. But it's not difficult to see why it's more frequent, when hard evidence is often non-existent and the line between consent and not is blurry and often subjective.

[Aksannyi]

The whole "asking for it" thing is fucking stupid. No, just because someone left their door unlocked, that does not mean that they wanted someone to come in and steal their stuff. They made it much easier, yes, but that still doesn't make that person in the wrong for someone stealing their stuff. Stealing was the crime here, and the thief is the one to blame, not the victim. Yes, we live in a shitty world where people have to lock their doors if they want to protect their valuables, but that doesn't mean that the thief was in the right for doing it just because it was easy.

The difference between rape and other crime prevention though, is that you're not made to feel like shit for doing things to prevent other crimes.

*You don't want your car broken into, so you make sure to lock the doors. No one questions that. That's normal.
*You don't want your house broken into, so you make sure to lock the doors and arm the alarm (if you have one). No one questions that. That's normal.
*You don't want to get mugged, so you stay in brightly lit areas and use the buddy system. No one questions that. That's normal.
*You don't want to get raped, so you refuse to go on a first date somewhere that isn't public and visible where you can be in control of how you arrive and leave. For some reason, people question those actions. Why. Why are we questioning someone taking preventative measures when we weren't questioning it for the other three scenarios I described? Why is this one different? (Because the fragile male ego is bruised? Because "I would never rape someone, how dare you think that of me?" Because he's such a "nice guy?" Nice guys, legitimately nice guys, would be okay with meeting a woman on her own terms in a way that makes her feel safe, because the safety of both parties on a date or in a relationship should be important. To both people.)

And then, if a woman decides that the person she's with is safe enough, meaning that she's made the decision that this person can be trusted not to do anything bad to her, and that guy acts against that and rapes her or otherwise assaults her, she gets lambasted for that. We're bitches if we don't trust you guys, but then we're idiots if we do.

[thetruepandagod]

The main one I would like to rebut is you never. EVER. Should accept a drink from someone you just met. Or leave your drink alone. Ever. Ever ever ever. Evereverevereferevedreal;sdfjaelkrjlvjeopruewfvere verervewrerververerevererfter. Actually, I'd probably suggest not drinking anywhere on a first, second mabye even third date. That's just me though, alcohol isn't a big factor in my life. Nor do I need it to relax or open up to someone.

I'll take a drink from any stranger in a pair of tight pants and a smile.

[Vandalhart]

The whole "asking for it" thing is fucking stupid. No, just because someone left their door unlocked, that does not mean that they wanted someone to come in and steal their stuff. They made it much easier, yes, but that still doesn't make that person in the wrong for someone stealing their stuff. Stealing was the crime here, and the thief is the one to blame, not the victim. Yes, we live in a shitty world where people have to lock their doors if they want to protect their valuables, but that doesn't mean that the thief was in the right for doing it just because it was easy.

The difference between rape and other crime prevention though, is that you're not made to feel like shit for doing things to prevent other crimes.

*You don't want your car broken into, so you make sure to lock the doors. No one questions that. That's normal.
*You don't want your house broken into, so you make sure to lock the doors and arm the alarm (if you have one). No one questions that. That's normal.
*You don't want to get mugged, so you stay in brightly lit areas and use the buddy system. No one questions that. That's normal.
*You don't want to get raped, so you refuse to go on a first date somewhere that isn't public and visible where you can be in control of how you arrive and leave. For some reason, people question those actions. Why. Why are we questioning someone taking preventative measures when we weren't questioning it for the other three scenarios I described? Why is this one different? (Because the fragile male ego is bruised? Because "I would never rape someone, how dare you think that of me?" Because he's such a "nice guy?" Nice guys, legitimately nice guys, would be okay with meeting a woman on her own terms in a way that makes her feel safe, because the safety of both parties on a date or in a relationship should be important. To both people.)

And then, if a woman decides that the person she's with is safe enough, meaning that she's made the decision that this person can be trusted not to do anything bad to her, and that guy acts against that and rapes her or otherwise assaults her, she gets lambasted for that. We're bitches if we don't trust you guys, but then we're idiots if we do.

I've been trying to chime in for the last few posts and not having much luck getting my thoughts together to do so.

None of the things you've said above make any woman a bitch to me. She's doing what she needs to do to protect herself in a situation where some of the variables are outside of her control. In a situation where's she's tricked to believe a guy is trustworthy and then he attacks her doesn't make her an idiot. It's makes her the victim of a horrible person. The same thing can be said for men as well.

[thetruepandagod]

lolrapeculture

Kid accused of raping a dozen girls and gets sent to jail.

Spoiler: show

Girls sleep around they get called sluts, guy sleeps around and get's called a rapist by bored girls.

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/story/28...-investigation

http://www.dailyhypeonline.com/lawye...cker-must-die/

[RKenshin]

The whole "asking for it" thing is fucking stupid. No, just because someone left their door unlocked, that does not mean that they wanted someone to come in and steal their stuff. They made it much easier, yes, but that still doesn't make that person in the wrong for someone stealing their stuff. Stealing was the crime here, and the thief is the one to blame, not the victim. Yes, we live in a shitty world where people have to lock their doors if they want to protect their valuables, but that doesn't mean that the thief was in the right for doing it just because it was easy.

The difference between rape and other crime prevention though, is that you're not made to feel like shit for doing things to prevent other crimes.

*You don't want your car broken into, so you make sure to lock the doors. No one questions that. That's normal.
*You don't want your house broken into, so you make sure to lock the doors and arm the alarm (if you have one). No one questions that. That's normal.
*You don't want to get mugged, so you stay in brightly lit areas and use the buddy system. No one questions that. That's normal.
*You don't want to get raped, so you refuse to go on a first date somewhere that isn't public and visible where you can be in control of how you arrive and leave. For some reason, people question those actions. Why. Why are we questioning someone taking preventative measures when we weren't questioning it for the other three scenarios I described? Why is this one different? (Because the fragile male ego is bruised? Because "I would never rape someone, how dare you think that of me?" Because he's such a "nice guy?" Nice guys, legitimately nice guys, would be okay with meeting a woman on her own terms in a way that makes her feel safe, because the safety of both parties on a date or in a relationship should be important. To both people.)

And then, if a woman decides that the person she's with is safe enough, meaning that she's made the decision that this person can be trusted not to do anything bad to her, and that guy acts against that and rapes her or otherwise assaults her, she gets lambasted for that. We're bitches if we don't trust you guys, but then we're idiots if we do.

I agree it's ridiculous, in all of those circumstances. Being a victim of any sort in any circumstance (crime, medical condition, accident, harm or otherwise) doesn't mean you deserve or are to blame for it, regardless of whether you did everything in your power to prevent it or not. Society as it is right now though, tends to often look at/blame the victim too for most things (at least in America).

Regarding your examples, however, there is a difference once you involve other people. Yes, you're correct, no one typically questions actions you take versus inanimate objects or in your personal habits to prevent bad things from happening... but the second it inconveniences or involves other people, again, it does start to get criticized (and once more that isn't unique to rape in particular). People are fine with you locking your door, until they left something important in your house, you aren't available, and now your willingness to expose yourself to risk and leave it unlocked/put a key under the mat can cause a similar response to the 'why can't I just pick you up?' situation (what's the big deal? don't you trust me? do you think I'm a thief? do you think I'll steal your shit?). People are fine with you not wanting to get mugged, until you're in a group of friends that want to bar hop and you refuse to go into an area you wouldn't otherwise want to. Etc.

Also, I can't help but feel like this gripe about how 'guys think we're bitches if we don't trust them right away' is a little over exaggerated... I'm sure there are a good deal of douchebaggy guys out there that think this way, but I have trouble believing that most regular guys are not more than understanding/willing to work with this. Anecdotal, yeah, but I don't know of any guy in my personal circles that would act like that. I certainly agree it's an unacceptable response to trying to protect yourself, especially with a stranger.

[Lyall]

Can't we just agree that some dude pressuring for private drinks on a first date is someone not worth dating? I understand the risk thing, I think, but holy shit it'd be like me hanging out in the back of a windowless van with a sign that says "Free Candy If You're Under 12 And Alone."

For fuck's sake, meet for dinner and then go home.

[Aksannyi]

Can't we just agree that some dude pressuring for private drinks on a first date is someone not worth dating? I understand the risk thing, I think, but holy shit it'd be like me hanging out in the back of a windowless van with a sign that says "Free Candy If You're Under 12 And Alone."

For fuck's sake, meet for dinner and then go home.

You'd be amazed how many times guys seem to think that sort of thing is okay though, and then act super offended when I'm not all into it.

RKenshin, that's kind of the hard thing about talking through these issues with guys, though. They don't realize how prevalent it actually is. You might hang out with a girl friend and think, "wow, this kind of stuff never happens to her," and relate your own anecdotal evidence thinking that feminists are just making it all up (Not you, per se, but guys in general). The thing is, when I'm with a guy, I don't have random strange guys catcalling at me, asking me creepy questions, or anything else. The fact that another guy is there for some reason often deters these types. (This is, incidentally, why most of the time, if a guy I'm not interested asks me out or starts to act weird toward me, I tell him I have a boyfriend, even when I don't. Guys are more likely to leave me alone when I say I have a boyfriend than when I simply say I'm not interested. They don't respect me - they respect that I "belong" to another man.)

However, when I'm alone or with girl friends, this happens a lot more often. This is the experience of a lot of women. We have collectively found that being in places with a guy decreases our chances of being harassed significantly. Generally, then, when we talk to men about these problems, they are surprised and often appalled when we tell them, then they deny it happens because, "I've never seen that happen." No. Guys don't. It's not sexist to say that, it's just a point of fact.

It's really pretty gross how far misogyny goes.