Feminist Philosophy

[Lyall]

You'd be amazed how many times guys seem to think that sort of thing is okay though, and then act super offended when I'm not all into it.

RKenshin, that's kind of the hard thing about talking through these issues with guys, though. They don't realize how prevalent it actually is. You might hang out with a girl friend and think, "wow, this kind of stuff never happens to her," and relate your own anecdotal evidence thinking that feminists are just making it all up (Not you, per se, but guys in general). The thing is, when I'm with a guy, I don't have random strange guys catcalling at me, asking me creepy questions, or anything else. The fact that another guy is there for some reason often deters these types. (This is, incidentally, why most of the time, if a guy I'm not interested asks me out or starts to act weird toward me, I tell him I have a boyfriend, even when I don't. Guys are more likely to leave me alone when I say I have a boyfriend than when I simply say I'm not interested. They don't respect me - they respect that I "belong" to another man.)

However, when I'm alone or with girl friends, this happens a lot more often. This is the experience of a lot of women. We have collectively found that being in places with a guy decreases our chances of being harassed significantly. Generally, then, when we talk to men about these problems, they are surprised and often appalled when we tell them, then they deny it happens because, "I've never seen that happen." No. Guys don't. It's not sexist to say that, it's just a point of fact.

It's really pretty gross how far misogyny goes.

I am amazed. Then again, I try to not hang out with douchebags and assholes and I do my best to not be a douchebag or an asshole.

[NynJa]

Aks
"Asking for it" doesnt actually mean youre putting a proberbial sign saying "pls assault me", it means youre doing things that draw attention to yourself from shitty human beings, because not every human being on the planet is a good human being. If that were the case, then we wouldnt need a justice system, or jails, or laws.

Whatever happened to "protect yourself"? If you pass by an accident on the road, and someone went flying through their windshield because they werent wearing their seatbelt, would you say "wow thats terrible" or would you say "why the hell wasnt this idiot wearing their seatbelt"?

[Aksannyi]

The point I'm trying to make is that it is a terrible phrase to use, and heavily implies victim blaming. Of course people know that no one is literally asking for it. But rather than placing the blame on the perpetrator, it places some - or in some cases, all - of the blame on the victim, implying that the victim had a hand in causing the crime against them. While personal responsibility goes a long way toward prevention of crimes, the term "asking for it" still heavily implies that the victim was in some measure at fault.

Often, the victim is doing something that is routine or mundane, like walking to the mailbox from their apartment, or getting into their car after work. They're not asking for it by simply doing normal things they would do every day of the week, but for some reason, that's the phrase that always comes up. Sorry, but being outside after dark is not asking for it. I cannot live my life in daylight only. The fact that people use that phrasing at all is honestly ridiculous.

We need to stop people from saying that. We need to stop people from automatically scrutinizing everything a woman does and then claim she was asking for it. Asking for it because I get out of my job after dark? As if I even had a choice in the matter. (In winter, it gets dark before 6PM here. There was a time when I never saw daylight because I spent so much time in the office.) Yes, people are terrible and we do the best we can to minimize risk. I can park my car in the most well-lit spot on the parking lot, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to be 100% safe. Should I ask for an escort every day? Is that reasonable, or is that paranoia? Many people would say "that's ridiculous, she's just being paranoid," then when something happens, go on to say "well why was she walking to her car by herself in the dark anyway?" We can't win.

"Asking for it" is awful, and people who use it are awful.

[Lyall]

I always assumed that when someone was "asking for it" it meant they were leading someone into thinking it was sex o'clock when it actually wasn't. Bringing someone back to your apartment, pouring drinks and making out while getting handsy would make someone think it was okay to proceed with things. Wearing intentionally sexy things and flirting or implying sex, then being surprised when the person they're flirting with tries to do something.

If someone (doesn't matter if it's male, female or self-identified refrigerator unit) is demonstrating that all lights are green with no intention of letting someone act on that, they're "asking for it." I'm not thinking in terms of actual sex or rape, though, but if you meet someone, grind body parts against them on the dance floor, seem interested in fucking them and generally invite sexual behavior, you don't get to be offended when someone tries to kiss you.

Obviously, rape is bad and wrong. The challenge there is being lead to believe sex is on the table when one person's made up their mind that it isn't but doesn't relay that very, very pertinent information to their partner.

[Salodin]

I always assumed that when someone was "asking for it" it meant they were leading someone into thinking it was sex o'clock when it actually wasn't. Bringing someone back to your apartment, pouring drinks and making out while getting handsy would make someone think it was okay to proceed with things. Wearing intentionally sexy things and flirting or implying sex, then being surprised when the person they're flirting with tries to do something.

If someone (doesn't matter if it's male, female or self-identified refrigerator unit) is demonstrating that all lights are green with no intention of letting someone act on that, they're "asking for it." I'm not thinking in terms of actual sex or rape, though, but if you meet someone, grind body parts against them on the dance floor, seem interested in fucking them and generally invite sexual behavior, you don't get to be offended when someone tries to kiss you.

Obviously, rape is bad and wrong. The challenge there is being lead to believe sex is on the table when one person's made up their mind that it isn't but doesn't relay that very, very pertinent information to their partner.

This exact thing came up in the thread before, and the consensus from feminist was "good luck young men". I get irritated when we assume the trash in our societies are the norm. Some men rape and beat women and suddenly were all the problem instead of there just existing some shitty men in our society.

For example, aks brings up men at a bar. When she's at a bar with a man it's all fine, but when she's with her girlfriends suddenly they're getting cat called and "harassed". I'm sorry, but that's retarded. The bar is considered one of THE spots to pick up partners from the age of 21 until you're old enough to die of natural causes; if you're surprised men are doing what works to pick up a woman at a bar than you don't want to go to a bar. No, not all men go about picking up women the same distasteful way, but it works for some and keeps on happening because of it. That's not rape culture, that's sex culture. Of course it doesn't happen when you're with a man, the majority of men can read the context and see that not only would you not be interested in them, but your date might flip out too. Is that not an example of a man doing the right thing? How many single men do the "right" thing every day when they want to holla at that fine woman only to see her with a man or a giant wedding ring on her finger? Why is that not considered the norm, considered our culture, but rape is?

[Aksannyi]

Wearing intentionally sexy things and flirting or implying sex, then being surprised when the person they're flirting with tries to do something.

If someone (doesn't matter if it's male, female or self-identified refrigerator unit) is demonstrating that all lights are green with no intention of letting someone act on that, they're "asking for it." I'm not thinking in terms of actual sex or rape, though, but if you meet someone, grind body parts against them on the dance floor, seem interested in fucking them and generally invite sexual behavior, you don't get to be offended when someone tries to kiss you.

Trying to do something is different than force. If some women can't tell the difference then they have a problem. If a man tries to kiss me and I back away and then he pursues, then that is assault. But I need to point something out that's really important:

Clothing is never an invitation.

The one and only indicator of whether or not it's okay to have sex with someone is whether or not they say or otherwise affirm that they want to have sex. If they are kissing back, helping with the removal of clothing, literally asking for you to do things, then sex is okay. If they are pushing away, saying no, resisting, trying to put clothing back on where someone has attempted to take it off, then sex is not okay.

I don't dress for men. I don't dress to invite men to think they can fuck me. I dress for myself. Whether or not I look like a slut does not matter if I say no to sex. End of fucking story. If provocative clothing is something which leads a man to believe that it is okay for him to touch or fuck a girl, then that is his own problem with self-control, and not the woman's. Clothing is not an invitation. You do not have a free invitation to touch someone without their express permission. Clothing does not alter that. Sexy clothing is not a permission slip for sex.

And one more time, clothing is not an invitation.

Salodin, I said absolutely nothing about a bar in any of my posts. I'm talking about situations like going to the mall, or a sporting event, or work, or the gym. Those are situations where, when I'm with girl friends, I have been harassed by men. These same situations, when I'm with a man - even if it's my dad, or my brother, or a friend - I do not get harassed. Men respect the wishes of other men more than they respect the wishes of other women. Bar culture is completely different, but that doesn't mean that men should not know when to back off. If I'm with my girl friends or with my guy friends and I explicitly say, "No, I am not interested, but thank you," then that is your cue to leave me alone, because I am not interested, but thank you. Women don't say one thing and mean another. If we say no, we mean no. No doesn't mean "convince me," it means no. This isn't hard. Even dogs understand the word no.

But that all falls under the dating culture, and not the types of things I'm talking about. If I walk from my work to my car after dark and I am raped, I am automatically "asking for it" because I was out after dark by myself, even though there was no indication in any way, shape, or form, that I was looking for a sexual encounter. Obviously things become more complicated when you take into account dating culture, but wearing provocative clothing doesn't mean you can just come up to me and grab my tit and that's like, totally okay. Because it's not. Also, it really doesn't hurt to ask if you may kiss someone. Really.

[Pirian]

lolrapeculture

Kid accused of raping a dozen girls and gets sent to jail.

Spoiler: show

Girls sleep around they get called sluts, guy sleeps around and get's called a rapist by bored girls.

http://www.fox10phoenix.com/story/28...-investigation

http://www.dailyhypeonline.com/lawye...cker-must-die/

This quickly got lost.

[Aksannyi]

Because we've been over false allegations, why they're bad, and why the people who make them should feel bad.

[Vandalhart]

The point I'm trying to make is that it is a terrible phrase to use, and heavily implies victim blaming. Of course people know that no one is literally asking for it. But rather than placing the blame on the perpetrator, it places some - or in some cases, all - of the blame on the victim, implying that the victim had a hand in causing the crime against them. While personal responsibility goes a long way toward prevention of crimes, the term "asking for it" still heavily implies that the victim was in some measure at fault.

Often, the victim is doing something that is routine or mundane, like walking to the mailbox from their apartment, or getting into their car after work. They're not asking for it by simply doing normal things they would do every day of the week, but for some reason, that's the phrase that always comes up. Sorry, but being outside after dark is not asking for it. I cannot live my life in daylight only. The fact that people use that phrasing at all is honestly ridiculous.

We need to stop people from saying that. We need to stop people from automatically scrutinizing everything a woman does and then claim she was asking for it. Asking for it because I get out of my job after dark? As if I even had a choice in the matter. (In winter, it gets dark before 6PM here. There was a time when I never saw daylight because I spent so much time in the office.) Yes, people are terrible and we do the best we can to minimize risk. I can park my car in the most well-lit spot on the parking lot, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to be 100% safe. Should I ask for an escort every day? Is that reasonable, or is that paranoia? Many people would say "that's ridiculous, she's just being paranoid," then when something happens, go on to say "well why was she walking to her car by herself in the dark anyway?" We can't win.

"Asking for it" is awful, and people who use it are awful.

You and I seem to be able to agree on a lot of things, but getting people to self censor themselves all the time no matter what is not one of them. It just doesn't seem like a healthy way to live.

If you feel that you want someone to escort you to your car is necessary for safety, then own it. Anyone else's opinion doesn't and shouldn't matter.

I'm not sure if the gender of the person matters or not, but I'm assuming traveling in at least a pair would be preferable, so I would see see if there are other people that feel the same way and travel as a group to one car and drop each other off at other cars if they're farther apart. Whether it's wrong or not, I'm sure any male would feel proud to escort a young woman to her car. Men would do it for other men also, it'd just be masked in a "oh, I'm going that way too" sort of fashion.

I would go out on a limb and say that "well why was she walking to her car by herself in the dark anyway?" is more of a statement because they feel bad they weren't there to stop something from happening.

[NynJa]

Women don't say one thing and mean another. If we say no, we mean no. No doesn't mean "convince me," it means no. This isn't hard. Even dogs understand the word no.

Dogs dont know the meaning of the word "no". They understand the emotion conveyed in the lower pitched angry tone. That tone is generally conveyed through the words "no" and "bad", and the dog associates those two together. You train the dog to learn that the words "no" and "bad" are bad things, in the same way you teach them to sit or lie down. You can walk into a kindergarden class room and say any hateful demeaning thing you want to them, as long as you do it in a high pitched voice and jazzhands they'll just associate it with good.

[Aksannyi]

Fair enough point, but I'm pretty sure women aren't fucking saying no like they're talking to a bunch of kindergartners.

[Pirian]

Because we've been over false allegations, why they're bad, and why the people who make them should feel bad.

But they don't feel bad, they feel justified. And they won't be punished more than a slap on the wrist if it turns out they conspired the entire story. No no, lets talk about how clothing isn't an invitation for the n'th time.

[Koul]

also UVA Rape article in Rolling Stones gutted. That biggun Jackie article

I'd argue questions like "were you walking alone to your car?" get asked, not to demean the victim or make them feel shitty but to gather as much information on the event as possible to try and do something about it the next time. Which is the misconception here. Should someone not be asked anything at all if they report an assault either to authorities or a friend?

[Andalusian girls]

Because we've been over false allegations, why they're bad, and why the people who make them should feel bad.

not to mention this is the thread about feminist philosophy (poor neglected feminist news thread) and anecdotal evidence such as that being used to definitively state the societal norm regarding promiscuity is that girls who sleep around merely get called sluts whereas guys who sleep around go to jail on false rape accusations is as logically consistent as posting a story about Dennis Lynn Rader to demonstrate that all white males are sexual sadists

[NynJa]

Fair enough point, but I'm pretty sure women aren't fucking saying no like they're talking to a bunch of kindergartners.

How many times does it just start with a playful no though? "no *giggle*, stop im catholic *giggle*".

[Aksannyi]

No no, lets talk about how clothing isn't an invitation for the n'th time.

Hmm. We're talking about it for the n'th time? Then why is it that people in this very thread still don't get it? I'm not going to stop talking about it until it stops being a problem. If you don't like that, then maybe work to change your thinking and the thinking of those around you. Stop shaming women for how they dress. Maybe when people as a whole (this goes for men and women) stop judging people and their intentions based on how they're dressed then we won't have to talk about this.

But what a woman is wearing is still considered relevant, not because there might be evidence on the clothing itself, but because it brings the woman's character into question. As if women of lesser moral character deserve it or something.

So yes, we're going to talk about this, because people still don't get it.

I'd argue questions like "were you walking alone to your car?" get asked, not to demean the victim or make them feel shitty but to gather as much information on the event as possible to try and do something about it the next time. Which is the misconception here. Should someone not be asked anything at all if they report an assault either to authorities or a friend?

"Were you alone?" is fine, it establishes what happened and paints a picture for the investigation.

"Why were you alone?" seems a bit unnecessary. What does it matter why someone was alone? It doesn't change anything except to make the victim feel like there was something else he/she could have done to change it, which is only making a traumatic experience worse. Believe me, the victim is already asking themselves what they could or should have done differently in that situation, they really don't need other people to pass that judgment onto them.

How many times does it just start with a playful no though? "no *giggle*, stop im catholic *giggle*".

Why does that matter though? You heard the word "no." Stop. If she asks you why you're stopping, tell her it's because she said no. If she wants to continue, she's at her liberty to tell you that. If not, congratulations, you passed Consent 101.

[NynJa]

Why does that matter though? You heard the word "no." Stop. If she asks you why you're stopping, tell her it's because she said no. If she wants to continue, she's at her liberty to tell you that. If not, congratulations, you passed Consent 101.

See, and here we have the conundrum where some women like to play hard to get, where they want to feel wanted so bad. And were back to "good luck young men"

[Salodin]

Salodin, I said absolutely nothing about a bar in any of my posts. I'm talking about situations like going to the mall, or a sporting event, or work, or the gym. Those are situations where, when I'm with girl friends, I have been harassed by men. These same situations, when I'm with a man - even if it's my dad, or my brother, or a friend - I do not get harassed. Men respect the wishes of other men more than they respect the wishes of other women. Bar culture is completely different, but that doesn't mean that men should not know when to back off. If I'm with my girl friends or with my guy friends and I explicitly say, "No, I am not interested, but thank you," then that is your cue to leave me alone, because I am not interested, but thank you. Women don't say one thing and mean another. If we say no, we mean no. No doesn't mean "convince me," it means no. This isn't hard. Even dogs understand the word no.

But that all falls under the dating culture, and not the types of things I'm talking about. If I walk from my work to my car after dark and I am raped, I am automatically "asking for it" because I was out after dark by myself, even though there was no indication in any way, shape, or form, that I was looking for a sexual encounter. Obviously things become more complicated when you take into account dating culture, but wearing provocative clothing doesn't mean you can just come up to me and grab my tit and that's like, totally okay. Because it's not. Also, it really doesn't hurt to ask if you may kiss someone. Really.

And this is where your disconnect comes from. It doesn't matter if one man does it, or ten men do it, they're not doing it because that's what men do, they're doing it because they want to smash and you look like a hot available woman. You look like a hot, available woman because you work out, don't have a ring on your finger, and are showing your body off in a way that society over the past century or so has deemed as a sexually attractive. The better man wouldn't cat call, but would come up and introduce them self, ask for a number or a date, etc. That man wouldn't be called out in this thread, and apparently that man wouldn't be considered the norm even though most of those other types of men are not successful, or at the least not successful with the type of women that would come to the feminist philosophy thread to post their anecdotes.

Men want something, just like women want something. It just so happens that men want sex, a lot; and when you do things or say things that make a man think you want it too, they'll act like you do. Now, that doesn't mean it's ok to start touching that fine woman walking down the street in a tight dress, but that fine woman shouldn't be surprised if men who are interested in an attractive woman start giving her extra special attention. That's what I see happening a lot, women who are surprised that men are reacting like men who want to attract a sexual partner when...that's exactly what they want to do.

If you want to feel sexy and dress provocatively, than that's your prerogative. No, that's not an open invitation for sex, but it is an invitation for interested parties to come and try to ask you out; the problem stems from how people do that, because some people out there need a proper role model in their life to tell them cat calling is not cool.

[Galkaeater]

not to mention this is the thread about feminist philosophy (poor neglected feminist news thread) and anecdotal evidence such as that being used to definitively state the societal norm regarding promiscuity is that girls who sleep around merely get called sluts whereas guys who sleep around go to jail on false rape accusations is as logically consistent as posting a story about Dennis Lynn Rader to demonstrate that all white males are sexual sadists

This thread is about hypothetically walking to a car hypothetically being raped then hypothetically some one somewhere will say 'asking for it'

[Koul]

I agree that someone asking why someone was alone is kind of lame but again, I highly doubt the intent is to cause offense or make the person feel shitty. The fact of the matter is that the questions are being asked to gather information, some people are better or more ginger with it than others.