Feminist Philosophy

[Blubbartron]

I know it's because those two are not generally taken seriously here, but doesn't anyone else find it funny that a discussion about feminism and things that affect women is being primarily made by men wanting to discuss these things with other men? I don't have the time or the energy to devote to Blubb's post because of finals, but I do find it amusing that women bring up their struggles to men, and men say, "I've never seen that." When women say that it's because it's an issue that primarily affects women, men then call us sexist and accuse us of forgetting about men's issues.

The one thing I do want to address is speaking up in meetings. I have experienced it firsthand. Women are interrupted, talked over, and told our opinions don't matter. Or, if I say something valid, another man will often repeat it (sometimes verbatim!) and he will get the credit for the idea, even though I literally just said that. Women are tired of being talked over. If you want women to be more assertive, then you need to tell men to shut the fuck up and listen to us.

And then actually listen to us.

Talking about feminism with mostly men who cannot know what types of things we encounter is just kind of silly, if you want my opinion. I do my best to post in this thread, but I butt up against so many people with perceptions that nothing I'm saying is valid because it isn't true in their experience. Well, it wouldn't be. You (mostly) are men, and you don't experience the world the way I do as a woman. Most of the time, I just have to ignore it because some of the stuff is so reactionary and defensive - if you're feeling defensive, maybe it's because something struck a chord. We aren't trying to attack anyone personally. But if these are behaviors that you subscribe to and if women speaking out is getting you to notice them, maybe it's time to attempt to change them. Just a thought.

I really can't write a fucking dissertation on this today but I just find it really amusing. You're asking for the opinions of men, on issues that primarily affect women. That pretty much entirely proves my point about the opinions of women not counting.

1) In my massive wall o' text I indicate that some of these things do happen (to both sexes) and the likely explanation for women bitching about things like getting interrupted in meetings is that they internalize things more than men do.

2) Having someone restate your idea isn't necessarily "men not valuing your opinion." There's a lot of factors at play when it comes to persuading people about an idea, and respect is one of them, but it's typically more respect for seniority/tenure than it is someone's sex. If the person that restated your opinion was your boss (or simply higher on the totem pole), and they get the credit for your idea, welcome to the world of fucking work. It's bullshit, but that's the way it goes. It doesn't just happen to women, and it's certainly not happening because you're a woman.

3) If men want women to be more assertive, then men need to assertively tell other men to stfu so that women don't have to be assertive at all while they babble on about their idea. You realize how ridiculous that statement you made was, yes? That's the exact fucking opposite of the definition of assertive. If you think people aren't listening to you, why don't you tell them to shut the fuck up and explain why your idea is brilliant? That's being assertive.

4) We're talking about feminism from the perspective of work, and the entire point of the TEDx talk was a woman talking about her experiences at work and at home while dealing with men. So, yeah, we can offer our viewpoints of the events because quite obviously men were there, and men have witnessed similar incidents.

5) The most important thing you've said is that "you don't experience the world the way I do as a woman." Yes. This is fundamentally true. Men and women tend to be very different. It's a biological thing. This is why "mansplaining" is a thing - because you're experiencing the world as if men are oppressing you, and intentionally being dicks to you, whereas men are experiencing the world as trying to do things as simply and efficiently as possible. We simply don't have the time or energy to take your feelings into account, so we don't.

6) A person getting defensive can happen either because the accusation leveled at them is wrong and they don't like it, or it's right and they don't like it. Do you see the pattern there? Getting defensive is a result of not liking what someone is saying about you, and has no relevance to the truth of the accusation. If I called you sexist for your attitudes from feminism, you'd likely get pretty damn defensive and go out of your way to prove me wrong (or you'd write off my accusations as "not feminist, therefore irrelevant and/or patriarchy").

7) Most importantly, Salodin was not asking for the opinions of men. He was asking for the opinions of outspoken uber feminists that post frequently. Stop being so fucking sexist and thinking everything is about whether people are male or female.

Lol, I don't care nearly enough about arguing with brick walls who literally believe sexism doesn't exist to watch some long ass video and discuss it point by point.

As I've stated multiple times in different threads, sexism exists without a doubt, but the problem is when you default to blaming sexism without any evidence that sexism is actually the cause for whatever it is you don't like. Your unwillingness to accept this perspective as valid, even though I've stated it so many times, makes it obvious who the brick wall is in this situation.

[Vandalhart]

You're asking for the opinions of men, on issues that primarily affect women. That pretty much entirely proves my point about the opinions of women not counting.

I have a feeling this could be directed at me though someone specifically asked for archibaldcrane or mazmaz to reply. I posted the video to get opinions from everyone who has been involved in the thread. I haven't committed everyone's gender identity to memory because it doesn't matter to me. If you're the only person in here posting opinions from the opposite side then I guess I'll just let the thread die if it goes inactive again.

Here's something I don't understand:
"If you want women to be more assertive, then you need to tell men to shut the fuck up and listen to us."

Why don't YOU (women) tell men to shut the fuck up for yourselves. Why does another man have to do it on your behalf? Does that not come across as disempowering women? This is a legitimate question from me I'm not trying to be snarky in any way so forgive me if it's coming across that way.

I don't understand how you are going to achieve equality for one group by giving them special treatment over another or getting one group to treat the other as if they need special treatment. Do you see where I'm coming from at all?

Lol, I don't care nearly enough about arguing with brick walls who literally believe sexism doesn't exist to watch some long ass video and discuss it point by point.

Not discussing anything at all because someone may not agree with you seems like a ridiculous thing to do. That being said, I haven't made up my mind on a lot of things, that's why I bumped the thread. If you want to give me another place to go to get some information that may help me adjust my sight on this topic feel free. I'm more than welcome to take the time and read and grow my opinion.

The above statement goes to anyone, no matter their gender or group affiliation. Chances are you won't get any feedback from me on my opinion because I'll likely keep it to myself but I would appreciate anything you want to pass along.

[archibaldcrane]

As I've stated multiple times in different threads, sexism exists without a doubt, but the problem is when you default to blaming sexism without any evidence that sexism is actually the cause for whatever it is you don't like. Your unwillingness to accept this perspective as valid, even though I've stated it so many times, makes it obvious who the brick wall is in this situation.

lol

just stop blubb

did you figure out why the sample size isn't large enough yet? aren't you a math major? statistics shouldn't be a bridge too far yo

[Aksannyi]

"If you want women to be more assertive, then you need to tell men to shut the fuck up and listen to us."

Why don't YOU (women) tell men to shut the fuck up for yourselves. Why does another man have to do it on your behalf? Does that not come across as disempowering women? This is a legitimate question from me I'm not trying to be snarky in any way so forgive me if it's coming across that way.

I don't understand how you are going to achieve equality for one group by giving them special treatment over another or getting one group to treat the other as if they need special treatment. Do you see where I'm coming from at all?

It wasn't aimed at you specifically, just a general trend I've noticed.

It's because men don't listen to women in the first place. Granted, I do speak up and say, "Don't interrupt me." What happens is that I get labeled as a bitch and treated like I am too "emotionally unstable" for meetings. Yes, that actually happened. We try to assert ourselves and men resist us and perceive us negatively for it, so we ask for men's help or at least tell other men to give us a chance and let us speak - and then we're told that we shouldn't need that because it puts us on an unequal footing.

It does. I recognize that. But unfortunately, when we attempt to do these things for ourselves, either it doesn't work or holds negative consequences. Until we get to a point where the type of respect that allows women to speak without being belittled, ignored, or otherwise silenced is normalized, then we have to ask men to remember that women's opinions are valid, too. "Of course I know that," say most men. Yes, you do, but then you watch your counterparts bully us into silence which changes nothing.

Can't win.

[Salodin]

You can win, by speaking up and earning the respect and attention when you talk that your peers earned themselves. You think that because a man is putting you through this, that another man didn't put that man through it too? Welcome to the world Aks, we (men) have dealt with it for ages. It's not a sex thing, it's a workplace thing; you might not know this because it wasn't until relatively recently that women were even included in these areas, because of sexism. Now they're having to deal with the same things men have to, and suddenly it's sexism holding them down some more? Nah.

lol

just stop blubb

did you figure out why the sample size isn't large enough yet? aren't you a math major? statistics shouldn't be a bridge too far yo

Are you going to actually respond or refute anything ever said in this thread, or just point fingers shouting "you're a sexist, you're a misogynist, you're a poopy pants" and call it a day? Nobody denies that sexism doesn't exist, but where we disagree is where it's pervasive in every problem a woman faces, and not just "bullshit" that men have had to deal with since forever and just don't complain about it because their forefathers dealt with the same shit too.

[Tyrath]

Wait, is this what this thread has devolved to? People are actually claiming sexism doesn't exist in society?

[Blubbartron]

Wait, is this what this thread has devolved to? People are actually claiming sexism doesn't exist in society?

No, archi is strawmanning that argument against rational critiques so he can feel smug and secure in his beliefs without actually having to defend them.

[Vandalhart]

One things that made me think a little harder lately was a statement about people getting sexist confused with misogynist or misandrist.

Something can be sexist and be okay... but my impression is that it's only if defined gender characteristics are acceptable to someone

At least I think that's how it was explained. It made me think a little, wether it was accurate or not.

[archibaldcrane]

Wait, is this what this thread has devolved to? People are actually claiming sexism doesn't exist in society?

They claim to acknowledge that it exists, but if pointed to evidence that it has a negative effect on women's achievement they say it's bullshit, essentially.

"Sexism exists but has no effect" would be the more apt rallying cry for Blubb.

[Salodin]

Question Archi, is it sexist to expect the same from women in a business environment as you do men?

[BerenTebogo]

I expect that if I'm running a research group meeting and someone keeps talking over / dismissing someone else, man or woman, I'm going to figuratively smack their shit up and they won't be around very long.

The experiences being related firsthand are of someone who was talked over / ignored repeatedly without consequence. Is it because of gender or because of shitty boss. With only that information we cannot decide. If we are given subsequent information that when male-male interactions of the same type were intervened on, or met with some level of disapproval, then we know it is about gender.

Just deal with it because our dads had to deal with and we are men is pretty fucking dumb.

[Salodin]

Most people can't be insubordinate to their boss and expect to keep their job. Men don't deal with it "because they're men", they deal with it because they're in an environment where they need to prove that their ideas and actions are worth the company's time.

If interrupting a woman as a man is sexist, than what is interrupting a man? Or maybe it has nothing to do with sex and everything with said man just being an asshole.

[BerenTebogo]

So you didn't read my post at all, got it.

[archibaldcrane]

Question Archi, is it sexist to expect the same from women in a business environment as you do men?

In most cases, no.

I eagerly await your followup.

[Teryu]

Whats the other cases?

[Salodin]

No follow up, was just confused why you seem to be defending the idea, among many, that interrupting a woman in the work place is sexist and not just asshole behavior. You seem to be sane and realize it's not sexist.

[archibaldcrane]

Whats the other cases?

If, for example, you expect women to use the lactation room as few times as men, or only allow people 6'4" or taller to speak in meetings, or judge employees extra effort by whether they attended the company function at a strip club, or or or

there's lots of sexist shit a company can do that will be sexist, even if you are "holding men and women to the same standard" - but in most cases, no.

[Eurell]

I really can't write a fucking dissertation on this today but I just find it really amazing. You're asking for the opinions of men, on issues that primarily affect women. That pretty much entirely proves my point about the opinions of women not counting.

I mean, you do realize it has nothing to do with not wanting to hear the opinion of a woman, right? It has to do with Maz and Archi being the loudest and most extreme of their side of the argument. People want to see how far to the other side this argument could go. It's the same thing as when people kept wondering what Hey would say next in the Trans thread. Or in any FF drama thread and people hope the person who stole the LS bank shows up.

[archibaldcrane]

No follow up, was just confused why you seem to be defending the idea, among many, that interrupting a woman in the work place is sexist and not just asshole behavior. You seem to be sane and realize it's not sexist.

If women are interrupted because they are perceived as having less valuable ideas because they are women, OF COURSE IT'S SEXIST.

A simple instance of interruption may or may not be sexist. A pattern of gender-specific interruption very well may be. Blanket statements aren't going to accomplish anything of substance here.

[archibaldcrane]

It has to do with Maz and Archi being the loudest and most extreme

I know that my acknowledgment of sexism existing is pretty extreme in this thread, but holy fuck don't most of you guys read tumblr feminists and shit? The idea that I'm the most extreme feminist here says volumes about the discourse (read: echo chamber) this thread is.