Feminist Philosophy

[GoggleHead]

Masculinity can be pretty toxic

Calling misandry on this horseshit. I'm drunk and I'm fucking tired of being portrayed as a goddamn demon for being male. Being male is not a bad thing.

[Aksannyi]

Hey bro, why don't you read my next post in this thread before jumping down my throat?

Also, you might have noticed "can be" and not "is." That means that it is possible that it may be at some times, not that it is all the time.

Chill the fuck out. I support the feminism which also advocates for men who are victims of the toxic sort of masculinity which forces them to fit a certain mold. I do not want to take any rights away from men, nor do I want women to be in charge or over anyone. I just want the sort of over-the-top masculinity that dictates both what men and women have to do in order to fit some sort of pre-ordained mold to go the fuck away.

[GoggleHead]

The thing is Aks, if we don't fill that role of stoicism, if we show that we're emotionally vulnerable? We suffer for it. Whenever I've allowed a woman to see that I have feelings and can be wounded emotionally, it immediately ends all romantic possibilities. If I don't fill that stereotypically male role, the results hurt me. So don't try to feed me that feminist nonsense about how men can be vulnerable. If men allow women to see them as vulnerable, women up and abandon them and leave 'em hurting. Shit's hardwired in at low level programming. Ain't nothing we can do about it.

[Blubbartron]

You think that socially progressive is SJW? Are you a conservative? If not, you should consider switching sides.

No, I'm quite liberal, actually. I just tend more towards libertarian than authoritarian. I think that there are so few issues on which the side of "progress" is so obvious, or has enough scientific/logical support as to be inarguable, that it's ridiculous for anyone to call themselves "socially progressive". I'm anti-gun ownership and death penalty, pro-abortion and gay marriage and weed, and yet somehow all the gender politics still make me want to hit people for being stupid.

I don't know that I saw that, per se, but is that really a bad thing though? Masculinity can be pretty toxic, especially when we teach our boys that they can't cry and they have to be tough all the time. That type of masculinity that believes that anything typically seen as feminine as weak is what perpetuates misogyny.

I'll interpret this as the "hyper-masculinity" for the purposes of argument, per your clarification after Gred's post. I agree that an individual being hyper-masculine is often going to end up being a shitty person, but I think the far more toxic notion is that anyone has any right to tell other people how they have to behave to be a "real X". Every person is their own person, and it's not up to you, or me, or anyone else what will fulfill them as a person the most. If their behavior drives people away, and they don't like that it drives people away, they will change their behavior. Or they won't. But that decision is up to them. We shouldn't be going out of our way to make people feel like shit about themselves because they don't meet the criteria of whatever we think is ideal. That idea applies to both males and females, and everything in between.

In response to Gred's lengthy post, I agree in general, but that isn't really the thing that's grinding my gears here. I'm more concerned about why these kinds of campaigns are so front and center in high-profile entertainment events. If there was any kind of evidence whatsoever of a patriarchal society continuing to hold women down, I could understand it being important enough to hamfist into every single avenue possible, but I've just never seen it. And yet, somehow we continue to see feminist/SJW ideals thrust into literally everything that will get it more exposure. Video games, STEM fields, journalism of all kinds - I could go on and on. This is the only subject that makes me wonder if I'm paranoid, but the more I see of it, the more it honestly does feel like some sort of conspiracy to supplement a lack of strong supporting evidence with overexposure to an idea as if it's absolute truth.

[Gredival]

The concept of hyper-masculinity exists to define the excessive machismo that patriarchal structures reinforce. But I think some people have a problem with accepting this because the concept is framed such only one side of the equation, masculine, is bad.

Even with the qualifier that masculinity is only bad in excess, i.e. "hyper-masculinity" is bad, the fact is that there's not a corresponding concept of "hyper-femininity." And with no female-based equivalent of machismo for us to decry, feminism appears to some men to be purely an assault on males. That's how we get everyone seeing "feminism" as "reverse-discrimination" or "reverse-sexism" instead of "gender equality."

The problem is that most social structures in human history have been patriarchal, not matriarchal, so we don't have a good grasp on what sorts of traits would be promoted in a society where women repress men. Consequently, the terminology we use in feminism will always appear biased because negativity can only be encapsulated through description of the masculine as bad.

Whenever I speak of feminism, I usually take care to talk in terms of "gender equality" or "equality between the sexes" for this reason. Not because I don't identify as a feminist (I do), but because feminism has (unfortunately) become a damaged brand.

[Kuya]

What exactly are SJW ideals? The way it's being used by you looks like a derogatory way to refer to gender equality as opposed to language policing.

I dislike pc language policing but if we're gonna pretend advocating for gender equality is the same thing, then that's where i get off.

[Aksannyi]

The thing is Aks, if we don't fill that role of stoicism, if we show that we're emotionally vulnerable? We suffer for it. Whenever I've allowed a woman to see that I have feelings and can be wounded emotionally, it immediately ends all romantic possibilities. If I don't fill that stereotypically male role, the results hurt me. So don't try to feed me that feminist nonsense about how men can be vulnerable. If men allow women to see them as vulnerable, women up and abandon them and leave 'em hurting. Shit's hardwired in at low level programming. Ain't nothing we can do about it.

That's because women have also been raised to believe that hyper-masculinity (I like that term, thank you Gred) is the way that things are supposed to be, but hyper-masculinity is what ends up resulting in domestic violence and rapes. Hyper-masculinity is why men don't come forward after having been raped, and then when they do, men make fun of that guy and say, "What? Men don't get raped." It's the reason why 15 year old kids who are raped by their female teachers (yes it is rape, underage = rape, also, person in a position of power over you = rape), men* cheer them on and refuse to call it what it is.

*Yes, not all men, I'm merely saying that it is men who do this. This also doesn't exclude some women, as some women have learned the same misogynistic behaviors as men. It's why women often say "I'm not like other girls," because they feel like they have to distance themselves from the female sex because we feel like we will not be liked otherwise - because being a female is seen as a bad thing. Being girly is seen as a bad thing. Throwing like a girl, etc. "All right, ladies," to a group of men - why? To demean them, because being a woman is seen as a bad thing. And we grow up with that our whole lives to the point that we normalize it, yes, even women. We grow up our whole lives thinking that we can't cry or show emotion either, because the minute we do? "PERIOD!" Because human emotion is a bad thing and periods and PMS affect all women and make us all completely 100% crazy. (Yes, that is sarcasm, if you can't tell.)

And yes, the results hurt you. That's because patriarchal values have been so ingrained in our society that anything feminine is seen as weak and bad. And women who don't understand or identify with feminism, women who haven't unlearned their own internalized misogynistic values and female self-hatred, they are equally as bad about it as men are.

I should add, I support equality, and no sort of matriarchal society.

[BerenTebogo]

The thing is Aks, if we don't fill that role of stoicism, if we show that we're emotionally vulnerable? We suffer for it. Whenever I've allowed a woman to see that I have feelings and can be wounded emotionally, it immediately ends all romantic possibilities. If I don't fill that stereotypically male role, the results hurt me. So don't try to feed me that feminist nonsense about how men can be vulnerable. If men allow women to see them as vulnerable, women up and abandon them and leave 'em hurting. Shit's hardwired in at low level programming. Ain't nothing we can do about it.

Jesus fuck I swear some of the shit I read on here.

We routinely tell people to grow a thicker skin, this is the internet, etc. Some posts like this make me wonder if dudes don't need to grow thicker skin about getting dumped.

This post is a few rhymes away from being a Fall Out Boy song.

[GoggleHead]

We routinely tell people to grow a thicker skin, this is the internet, etc. Some posts like this make me wonder if dudes don't need to grow thicker skin about getting dumped.

We do, because when we don't we wander down the route of suicide.

I've been teetering on the edge for about a year now, not that anyone at all fucking cares. Thing is, we're emotionally vulnerable, whereas women just shrug it off after a month or two.

[BerenTebogo]

We do, because when we don't we wander down the route of suicide.

I've been teetering on the edge for about a year now, not that anyone at all fucking cares. Thing is, we're emotionally vulnerable, whereas women just shrug it off after a month or two.

You want I should get you some tissues or...?

Seriously, the woe is me trend is pretty pathetic. Especially when stacked on top of "and females are all uncaring evil bitches who stomp on hearts in stilettos!"

Sorry you've had some bad experiences with women man, but (and I'm assuming you're older than say, 17) it's part of life for both sexes. It's called life.

[Gredival]

What exactly are SJW ideals? The way it's being used by you looks like a derogatory way to refer to gender equality as opposed to language policing.

I dislike pc language policing but if we're gonna pretend advocating for gender equality is the same thing, then that's where i get off.

SJW seems to be mostly flung around as a dismissive way to refer to proponents of almost any rights movement. In practice though, I have found that "SJWs" are best understood as any wing of a particular ideology that is concerned primarily with how that ideology is relevant to "oppression/victim politics."

For example, in feminism as a whole is a much bigger umbrella movement/ideology that is concerned with gender equality. In practice, this is usually about equal pay, abortion rights, etc. Comparatively, I think the "SJW" wing of the ideology are the people whose dominant concerns are "everyday oppressions" such as cultural representations, triggers, micro-aggressions, etc. That's not to say they don't care about other things, but that's their bread and butter.

[Blubbartron]

What exactly are SJW ideals? The way it's being used by you looks like a derogatory way to refer to gender equality as opposed to language policing.

I dislike pc language policing but if we're gonna pretend advocating for gender equality is the same thing, then that's where i get off.

If I had to summarize SJW ideals in a simple statement, it would be that feels > *. I forget who keeps saying it, but they're right on the money with their sarcastic comment that "your rights end where my feelings begin." That's what differentiates SJWs from pure feminists in my mind, but they are strongly correlated groups, simply due to the fact that most feminists are relying on belief (feelings), not data, that women are still being treated as 2nd class citizens in this country.

I do want to address inequality where it is (regardless of gender, race, creed, etc), but feminists and SJWs need to accept that inequality of outcome DOES NOT indicate inherent bias or oppression at a systemic level. Gred seems to speak my language, but he somehow manages to identify with feminist ideals, so maybe he can give me some sources that will manage to convince that this country is as fucked up and backwards as feminists seem to keep telling us it is.

[GoggleHead]

See, it's not just women, men too give other men shit if they show vulnerability. Can't show vulnerability, plain and simple.

[Aksannyi]

We do, because when we don't we wander down the route of suicide.

I've been teetering on the edge for about a year now, not that anyone at all fucking cares. Thing is, we're emotionally vulnerable, whereas women just shrug it off after a month or two.

Really? Really. You want to talk about suicidal with me? Really.

And you are blaming women for this? Not ... I don't know ... depression? Because generally that's the root cause. I'm not trying to beat on you here. Really, because I am depressed (have been for 20+ years) and I have been suicidal. I can empathize. But you really can't blame women for that. They might contribute or even trigger it sometimes, but that's not the underlying cause.

I do take issue with you saying that we shrug it off. No we don't. You're acting as though we don't hurt after break ups, too. You're acting as though it isn't difficult for us to find connections, too. We have these struggles too.

[Stumblingdrunk]

See, it's not just women, men too give other men shit if they show vulnerability. Can't show vulnerability, plain and simple.

And that's the fault of????

[Aksannyi]

See, it's not just women, men too give other men shit if they show vulnerability. Can't show vulnerability, plain and simple.

You're getting shit because you're blaming an entire gender for your problems.

[BerenTebogo]

See, it's not just women, men too give other men shit if they show vulnerability. Can't show vulnerability, plain and simple.

I'm giving you shit for blaming your life problems on other humans.

That's not being vulnerable, that's being a child. There's a difference.

It's fine to be sad, or broken hearted, or emotionally devastated. I've been around that block more times than I'd like to admit. Letting it fuck with your head to the point that you literally think all women are evil robots is just...idk man. It really seems childish to me.

[Gredival]

The thing is Aks, if we don't fill that role of stoicism, if we show that we're emotionally vulnerable? We suffer for it. Whenever I've allowed a woman to see that I have feelings and can be wounded emotionally, it immediately ends all romantic possibilities. If I don't fill that stereotypically male role, the results hurt me. So don't try to feed me that feminist nonsense about how men can be vulnerable. If men allow women to see them as vulnerable, women up and abandon them and leave 'em hurting. Shit's hardwired in at low level programming. Ain't nothing we can do about it.

See, it's not just women, men too give other men shit if they show vulnerability. Can't show vulnerability, plain and simple.

And a feminist would argue that you too are a victim of sexism. That the patriarchal structures of our society which prize masculinity above femininity have defined what is and is not appropriate for a man, so men who deviate from this gender norm are marginalized.

There was a British study a few years ago that found that couples in which the dad stays home and the mom worked lead to higher relative rates of martial dissatisfaction compared to couples where the dad worked and the mom stayed at home. This happened even in couples who, decided together, that it made more sense for the guy to stay at home. The problem was that the women couldn't help but start finding their mates less attractive when she was working and "providing" and he was not.

Feminism isn't just about a woman getting passed over for a job because she's a woman. It's about how our gender norms influence the way we think and act in everyday society, even subconsciously. And that hurts men AND women.

[BaneTheBrawler]

We do, because when we don't we wander down the route of suicide.

I've been teetering on the edge for about a year now, not that anyone at all fucking cares.

Seek help. Please.

We're drifting off topic, here.

Edit: Gred ninja'd. but yeah, that's the topic at hand.

[Aksannyi]

And a feminist would argue that you too are a victim of sexism. That the patriarchal structures of our society which prize masculinity above femininity have defined what is and is not appropriate for a man, so men who deviate from this gender norm are marginalized.

There was a British study a few years ago that found that couples in which the dad stays home and the mom worked lead to higher relative rates of martial dissatisfaction compared to couples where the dad worked and the mom stayed at home. This happened even in couples who, decided together, that it made more sense for the guy to stay at home. The problem was that the women couldn't help but start finding their mates less attractive when she was working and "providing" and he was not.

Feminism isn't just about a woman getting passed over for a job because she's a woman. It's about how our gender norms influence the way we think and act in everyday society, even subconsciously. And that hurts men AND women.

This, you just said it so much better than I have.