Feminist Philosophy

[Koul]

What other commercials were there? I saw one on spousal abuse that I absolutely loved. Not being sarcastic incase someone reads into it that way. I really did enjoy it. This one:

[Blubbartron]

That's because women have also been raised to believe that hyper-masculinity (I like that term, thank you Gred) is the way that things are supposed to be, but hyper-masculinity is what ends up resulting in domestic violence and rapes. Hyper-masculinity is why men don't come forward after having been raped, and then when they do, men make fun of that guy and say, "What? Men don't get raped." It's the reason why 15 year old kids who are raped by their female teachers (yes it is rape, underage = rape, also, person in a position of power over you = rape), men* cheer them on and refuse to call it what it is.

The bold is a perfect example of why I have a really hard time taking feminism seriously. The black and white is so strong with this, I can't even. Both of those situations are definitely unethical (especially from a professional ethics perspective), but from a romantic perspective, you're simply ignoring the fact that humans are sexual beings, and people reach sexual maturity loooooooooong before the arbitrarily accepted cutoffs that we've put into law in our Puritanical country.

I know people want to live in a world where everything is black and white, because it will make things easier, but shit really is situational. Not every relationship between teacher and student is some perverted, predatory monster abusing their power to groom young kids into relationships. Not every boss that hooks up with an assistant is abusing their position or extorting the subordinate for sex. Claiming rape in all situations (and failing to distinguish between what we would call "typical" rape vs. statutory or extortion rape) weakens your argument by an incredible amount.

[GoggleHead]

Really? Really. You want to talk about suicidal with me? Really.

And you are blaming women for this? Not ... I don't know ... depression? Because generally that's the root cause. I'm not trying to beat on you here. Really, because I am depressed (have been for 20+ years) and I have been suicidal. I can empathize. But you really can't blame women for that. They might contribute or even trigger it sometimes, but that's not the underlying cause.

I do take issue with you saying that we shrug it off. No we don't. You're acting as though we don't hurt after break ups, too. You're acting as though it isn't difficult for us to find connections, too. We have these struggles too.

Yeah Aks, I do. Being the guy who reached out to you when you were reaching for the shotgun a couple years back, I don't really have any qualms about talking suicide with you.

I don't blame "women" so much as a specific woman at this point in time, but it is a pattern I've noticed over the years.

Sorry about the "shurgging it off" thing, forgive me for taking women I know at their word and trusting their experiences, but everything I've heard indicates they get over a breakup a lot quicker than men generally do. What I've heard from people I know leads me to believe that the recovery time for women is measured in months, while the recovery time for men is measured in years.

[BerenTebogo]

Yeah Aks, I do. Being the guy who reached out to you when you were reaching for the shotgun a couple years back, I don't really have any qualms about talking suicide with you.

I don't blame "women" so much as a specific woman at this point in time, but it is a pattern I've noticed over the years.

Sorry about the "shurgging it off" thing, forgive me for taking women I know at their word and trusting their experiences, but everything I've heard indicates they get over a breakup a lot quicker than men generally do. What I've heard from people I know leads me to believe that the recovery time for women is measured in months, while the recovery time for men is measured in years.

So your vilification of an entire gender is based on anecdotes and dear diaries?

You understand why you should be on the receiving end of copious amounts of shoveled horse shit for that, right?

You understand that this is a stance taken by a child, right?

[Aksannyi]

The bold is a perfect example of why I have a really hard time taking feminism seriously. The black and white is so strong with this, I can't even. Both of those situations are definitely unethical (especially from a professional ethics perspective), but from a romantic perspective, you're simply ignoring the fact that humans are sexual beings, and people reach sexual maturity loooooooooong before the arbitrarily accepted cutoffs that we've put into law in our Puritanical country.

I know people want to live in a world where everything is black and white, because it will make things easier, but shit really is situational. Not every relationship between teacher and student is some perverted, predatory monster abusing their power to groom young kids into relationships. Not every boss that hooks up with an assistant is abusing their position or extorting the subordinate for sex. Claiming rape in all situations (and failing to distinguish between what we would call "typical" rape vs. statutory or extortion rape) weakens your argument by an incredible amount.

Fair enough, so why do we demonize male teachers who do their female students while praising the male students who get it on with their female teachers? Even if we don't want to call it rape every time (which I disagree with, but I'll go down this road), why is it so much worse when men do it? Why is rape against boys not taken as seriously?

Yeah Aks, I do. Being the guy who reached out to you when you were reaching for the shotgun a couple years back, I don't really have any qualms about talking suicide with you.

I don't blame "women" so much as a specific woman at this point in time, but it is a pattern I've noticed over the years.

Sorry about the "shurgging it off" thing, forgive me for taking women I know at their word and trusting their experiences, but everything I've heard indicates they get over a breakup a lot quicker than men generally do. What I've heard from people I know leads me to believe that the recovery time for women is measured in months, while the recovery time for men is measured in years.

I understand having a rough experience and wanting to find someone on which to place blame. And I really don't want you to think I'm attacking you. Real talk. I feel like the reason you lashed out is because you are experiencing a lot of pain, and I understand that. Please don't feel like you can't show emotion or feel things. If you have to, PM someone, start an anonymous blog or something. It helps.

[Blubbartron]

So your vilification of an entire gender is based on anecdotes and dear diaries?

You understand why you should be on the receiving end of copious amounts of shoveled horse shit for that, right?

You understand that this is a stance taken by a child, right?

You're about 3 seconds away from telling him he's not a man. The irony is pretty fucking strong here.

[GoggleHead]

So your vilification of an entire gender is based on anecdotes and dear diaries?

You understand why you should be on the receiving end of copious amounts of shoveled horse shit for that, right?

You understand that this is a stance taken by a child, right?

Yeah yeah, I'm fucking worthless and immature and everything I deal with is entirely my fault. I get that. It doesn't make enduring it any more pleasant.

[BerenTebogo]

You're about 3 seconds away from telling him he's not a man. The irony is pretty fucking strong here.

No, I'm pointing out that his reaction to the situation is childlike. It's not a lack of masculinity that is his problem, it's a lack of maturity.

Dudebros can be immature too, even when gushing with masculinity.

I mean if you see irony in it, I guess. But I'm not telling him to man up, I'm telling him to grow up. A not so subtle difference.

[BerenTebogo]

And also for what it's worth I do understand that I am going pretty fierce at you right now Gogglehead.

How much I am disgusted by reading the childish things you've written and how bad you feel being berated for it might be an apt comparison for how bad women might feel being berated for things they've never done to you.

Being labeled an evil, shitty, heart crushing monster right out of the gate isn't any less bad than being labeled a petulant child.

[Gredival]

The bold is a perfect example of why I have a really hard time taking feminism seriously. The black and white is so strong with this, I can't even. Both of those situations are definitely unethical (especially from a professional ethics perspective), but from a romantic perspective, you're simply ignoring the fact that humans are sexual beings, and people reach sexual maturity loooooooooong before the arbitrarily accepted cutoffs that we've put into law in our Puritanical country.

I know people want to live in a world where everything is black and white, because it will make things easier, but shit really is situational. Not every relationship between teacher and student is some perverted, predatory monster abusing their power to groom young kids into relationships. Not every boss that hooks up with an assistant is abusing their position or extorting the subordinate for sex. Claiming rape in all situations (and failing to distinguish between what we would call "typical" rape vs. statutory or extortion rape) weakens your argument by an incredible amount.

Statutory rape is an issue of law. And the law works on age of consent. It's an admittedly arbitrary line; there are certainly 13 year olds who are mature enough to make decisions about their body and whom to share it with and 20 year olds who are not. But the line exists to protect victims from those who would use positions of power to take advantage of vulnerable people and escape culpability through capricious judges and juries.

The law is the way it is because we don't want a 30 year old who is having sex with a 13 year old to be able to say "He/she is mature for their age!"

(Bosses extorting employees for sexual favors is not rape by the way; legally speaking, it's quid-pro-quo sexual harassment in violation of Title VII and other relevant state laws)

[BerenTebogo]

Dammit you edited "Statutory Ape". I had a picture for that.

[Koul]

I'm drunk

It's not my intention to backseat mod but anytime someone prefaces a post with this can they get timed out? Just a thought :3

[Aksannyi]

(Bosses extorting employees for sexual favors is not rape by the way; legally speaking, it's quid-pro-quo sexual harassment in violation of Title VII and other relevant state laws)

I meant this strictly in regard to the teacher-student relationships, which already fall under statutory rape so it was really unnecessary to double dip there I suppose. I guess if you had a student over the age of consent (16 in some states, 18 in others which most high school seniors reach at some point in the year) and you took advantage it could still be considered rape in that situation. Then again, I do not know for sure. Basically, people who do that are gross. Personally, the last time I looked at 15 year old boys I was not even remotely impressed, so I have no idea what these women are doing lol. (Aside from being, well, not quite right in the head.)

[Blubbartron]

Fair enough, so why do we demonize male teachers who do their female students while praising the male students who get it on with their female teachers? Even if we don't want to call it rape every time (which I disagree with, but I'll go down this road), why is it so much worse when men do it? Why is rape against boys not taken as seriously?

I'll grant you that a lot of society does treat it differently depending on which sex is the younger party. However, I've never seen the sense in that because I don't overvalue sex like many people do (people can fuck whoever, however they want, no biggie). If you want my hypothesis on why that is, I'm inclined to agree with the argument from anthropology/social evolution. Males and females are biologically different, and we have different levels of investment when it comes to pairing/procreating. Historically, rape was a significant crime because it was considered to devalue property (usually a virgin daughter being worthless to her father, because no virgin = no dowry). That was a time when women literally were property (of their fathers), in actually patriarchal societies. But you have to look beyond that misogyny to see that the heart of it was that virginity was a valued trait. Sexual promiscuity was a negative trait in women (in terms of worthiness as a mate), because men wanted to know that their children were theirs, and not someone else's, ensuring their genes were passed on. We still have this somewhat primal instinct to value chasteness in women, and we see that instinct displayed in current times as the overreaction to perceived abuses of power in sexual relationships with women. Denying women their ability to be chaste is taking away their value as potential mates, especially if the relationship is purely sexual (not a LTR).

Obviously I think, from a logical standpoint, that valuing chasteness in women is stupid (this may also be because I don't care to reproduce). Sluts are awesome. The world needs more sluts. But our primitive monkey brains just don't evolve as fast as technology and culture do, so we have silly inconsistencies like this, and likely will for a very long time, despite any attempts to self-correct.

[Gredival]

Obviously I think, from a logical standpoint, that valuing chasteness in women is stupid (this may also be because I don't care to reproduce). Sluts are awesome. The world needs more sluts. But our primitive monkey brains just don't evolve as fast as technology and culture do, so we have silly inconsistencies like this, and likely will for a very long time, despite any attempts to self-correct.

And thus you've stumbled on one of the points of feminism. Identifying how some of our everyday behavior seems innocuous and innocent, but is founded upon covertly sexist assumptions, is the first step in trying to inch towards a more equal cultural paradigm. That we don't need women being denied the right to vote to say that they suffer from sexism.

[Aksannyi]

I'll grant you that a lot of society does treat it differently depending on which sex is the younger party. However, I've never seen the sense in that because I don't overvalue sex like many people do (people can fuck whoever, however they want, no biggie). If you want my hypothesis on why that is, I'm inclined to agree with the argument from anthropology/social evolution. Males and females are biologically different, and we have different levels of investment when it comes to pairing/procreating. Historically, rape was a significant crime because it was considered to devalue property (usually a virgin daughter being worthless to her father, because no virgin = no dowry). That was a time when women literally were property (of their fathers), in actually patriarchal societies. But you have to look beyond that misogyny to see that the heart of it was that virginity was a valued trait. Sexual promiscuity was a negative trait in women (in terms of worthiness as a mate), because men wanted to know that their children were theirs, and not someone else's, ensuring their genes were passed on. We still have this somewhat primal instinct to value chasteness in women, and we see that instinct displayed in current times as the overreaction to perceived abuses of power in sexual relationships with women. Denying women their ability to be chaste is taking away their value as potential mates, especially if the relationship is purely sexual (not a LTR).

Obviously I think, from a logical standpoint, that valuing chasteness in women is stupid (this may also be because I don't care to reproduce). Sluts are awesome. The world needs more sluts. But our primitive monkey brains just don't evolve as fast as technology and culture do, so we have silly inconsistencies like this, and likely will for a very long time, despite any attempts to self-correct.

That's true, and the property thing literally made me cringe (though I know it's true). Nowadays, I've seen a lot of women now decrying the concept of virginity, saying that no dick fundamentally changes who she is or how she's valued, and that's something I can really get on board with. Obviously virginity is still valued in society.

I think what's great is the shift in how rape is viewed. Of course, men still think it is bad, but now the women have more say in that, and more say in who gets to touch/enter their bodies. Rape is essentially saying, "I don't value your ability to own your own body, and I'm taking that away from you by refusing to acknowledge your autonomy." Rape (of women) is no longer a crime against men, but a crime against women. (There is a whole school of thought about how that shift has made it harder for rapes to be tested and/or prosecuted because of society's inherent belief that women are lesser than men, but let's not go there right now - suffice to say that's part of rape culture.) Women have made that about them because it is, entirely. And as much as rape sucks, it's great that we're able to own this where we were not able to several hundreds of years ago.

I do agree that the double standards regarding sex need to go away. Men are allowed to be promiscuous and no one thinks twice about it, but women? Slut. I guarantee I've had sex with more people than a lot of guys on this board, and when a male shrink tried to tell me it was because I "didn't value myself enough as a person," that's when I knew I had to stop seeing that guy. My empowerment is not about how few I allow to touch my body. My empowerment is that I have the say so about it. (A concept that, among many other things, my ex-husband did not grasp.)

Though it is a fascinating topic, and I do love talking about gender roles and the disparities between them. Gender roles are entirely socially constructed, and once people realize that it's amazing just how much they notice that they hadn't before.

[Aksannyi]

And thus you've stumbled on one of the points of feminism. Identifying how some of our everyday behavior seems innocuous and innocent, but is founded upon covertly sexist assumptions, is the first step in trying to inch towards a more equal cultural paradigm. That we don't need women being denied the right to vote to say that they suffer from sexism.

Isn't it funny how people (generally those of privilege) say these things? "Women can vote, we don't need feminism." "The Civil Rights Act passed, we don't have racism anymore." In about 10 years, it'll be, "Gays can get married, we don't need gay pride anymore." It's not like someone clicks a button or signs a law and all problems between cultures magically disappear. It's hilarious in a sad sort of way how people honestly think this.

[Blubbartron]

Statutory rape is an issue of law. And the law works on age of consent. It's an admittedly arbitrary line; there are certainly 13 year olds who are mature enough to make decisions about their body and whom to share it with and 20 year olds who are not. But the line exists to protect victims from those who would use positions of power to take advantage of vulnerable people and escape culpability through capricious judges and juries.

The law is the way it is because we don't want a 30 year old who is having sex with a 13 year old to be able to say "He/she is mature for their age!"

(Bosses extorting employees for sexual favors is not rape by the way; legally speaking, it's quid-pro-quo sexual harassment in violation of Title VII and other relevant state laws)

Yes, it is a law, but it is a law that exists purely because it is so easy to enforce. It's laziness, and I think it's quite reasonable to argue that laziness harms more than it helps. As you've noted yourself, there are people that are not ready for sex that are above that arbitrary line, and thus automatically lose the protection that we should be giving them. Similarly, we're actively harming people in a discriminatory fashion by impeding their ability to freely express themselves based solely on their age. What would make vastly more sense is some kind of test to determine sex/relationship maturity. A tricky subject to be sure, but I think if we can create a test that determines if a person has the knowledge and skills to responsibly handle driving (something that you can very easily kill yourself or others with), we could propose some kind of similar test for knowledge and understanding to see if you're responsible enough for sex.

The law part aside (I wasn't really looking to get into a debate about law), it seems like you missed the core of my argument. We need to be less judgmental as a society, and try to really get into the details of things before forming opinions. Feminism seems to be ignoring that, or maybe it's just a pattern I'm noticing with feminists making blanket statements and demonizing things equally under the ever-growing umbrella of "rape".

[BaneTheBrawler]

That's true, and the property thing literally made me cringe (though I know it's true). Nowadays, I've seen a lot of women now decrying the concept of virginity, saying that no dick fundamentally changes who she is or how she's valued, and that's something I can really get on board with. Obviously virginity is still valued in society.

...

I do agree that the double standards regarding sex need to go away. Men are allowed to be promiscuous and no one thinks twice about it, but women? Slut.

I think it is worth noting the flip side of the same problem: the idea that men must have sex by a certain age or they are not real men (or: assigning negative value to male virginity). Also ties in to the toxicity of hyper-masculinity mentioned before.

Don't want to get too involved but felt that was worth mentioning and, maybe, discussing.

[Blubbartron]

And thus you've stumbled on one of the points of feminism. Identifying how some of our everyday behavior seems innocuous and innocent, but is founded upon covertly sexist assumptions, is the first step in trying to inch towards a more equal cultural paradigm. That we don't need women being denied the right to vote to say that they suffer from sexism.

Except nowhere did I say it was a sexist assumption. I said it was evolution as a result of biological differences. If you want to talk equality in the cultural paradigm, we can't simply ignore the fact that men often want to know their kids are theirs. As it stands, they have no protection whatsoever, and in fact a lot of child support laws are woefully uncaring about the opinion of the man involved. I hope most people can agree that it's fucked up if a guy finds out his wife cheated on him, the child isn't the husband's, so he divorces her, but still has to pay child support because he provided care during the time he mistakenly assumed it was his child. The whole thing is a mess, but the laws take an exceedingly higher priority than our societal views of other people.

Isn't it funny how people (generally those of privilege) say these things? "Women can vote, we don't need feminism." "The Civil Rights Act passed, we don't have racism anymore." In about 10 years, it'll be, "Gays can get married, we don't need gay pride anymore." It's not like someone clicks a button or signs a law and all problems between cultures magically disappear. It's hilarious in a sad sort of way how people honestly think this.

This is pretty similar to what I was talking about with Gred above - the laws have the higher priority. You're never, ever going to be able to dictate how people think and feel, but with laws you can dictate what they can DO. This is another pretty deep divide between SJWs/feminists and other people. You seem to think that racism/sexism are things that can be "fixed". I don't believe it's possible. I believe we give people equal rights under the law, and we enforce those laws to the best of our ability. If a law isn't enforced, then bring attention to the lack of enforcement. If an avenue for discrimination isn't protected (race, gender, creed, etc) then get a law created. But if the laws exist, and they're enforced, then it's time to shut the fuck up. After a while it just seems like people are going "I have every opportunity that anyone else does, and no one can discriminate against me based on who/what I am, but these other people still don't LIKE ME, and that's bad." At that point I just have to laugh. You can't make everyone like everyone else, and to try is an exercise in futility.