Feminist Philosophy

[NynJa]

But feminists told me that if i look a girl the wrong way, im raping her.

[Ksandra]

But feminists told me that if i look a girl the wrong way, im raping her.

This is what is so insane about many in this thread. You have to go to the hyperbole rather than coming to rational decisions.

Just because someone thinks saying 'no' and then pushed into sex is rape doesn't mean they think anytime someone looks at them is rape.

It's ok for you to think saying no and forcing sex is rape. It doesn't make you a femnazi. It doesn't mean that men aren't stereotyped.

[TheDirtyHobo]

This is a nonsense argument, and furthermore the only reason to make it is to further devalue rape victims. It's completely disgusting.

Devaluing rape victims is an unfortunate consequence of devaluing the concept of rape by broadening its use so far. Extremism breeds extremism. It's disgusting that people have to react to others admitting they've been raped by guessing whether they mean they were violated in a potentially life-changing way or whether they were just drunk and made a stupid decision.

[Thunder]

But it isn't hyperbole.

In fact, there's a lot of irony in there considering there's so many here that are equating the perils of frat parties with primarily alcohol and rape. Saying, 'if a girl can't navigate the perils of a frat party' is supposed to be a disgusting remark because the writer is implying a girl should be able to negotiate her way out of a violent sexual assault. When that's not AT ALL what's happening because we all know (or should know?) that frat parties are not cesspools of rape. That is, unless you're going to go on believing obama's 1/4 women BS

So if you're on board with only calling rape things that are violent and forceful... then you should have no trouble understanding where the writer is coming from when they do the whole "if a girl can't do this she'll never be an important leader"
And if you can't see that, then you're probably under the impression a frat party is rape central... which would be in line with the 1/4 figure... which would be in line with looking at someone being rape, guilty sex is rape, tipsy sex is rape, telling a girl she's pretty but not really meaning it is rape, etc etc

See where the "misogynists" are coming from?

[Melena]

This is what is so insane about many in this thread. You have to go to the hyperbole rather than coming to rational decisions.

Just because someone thinks saying 'no' and then pushed into sex is rape doesn't mean they think anytime someone looks at them is rape.

It's ok for you to think saying no and forcing sex is rape. It doesn't make you a femnazi. It doesn't mean that men aren't stereotyped.

Well in Nynja's defense, we did have people in here go as far as saying a male shouldn't walk on the same side of the street, look at a woman they don't know, and essentially don't even acknowledge them for fear of making them think they are going to be raped.

[Ksandra]

Well in Nynja's defense, we did have people in here go as far as saying a male shouldn't walk on the same side of the street, look at a woman they don't know, and essentially don't even acknowledge them for fear of making them think they are going to be raped.

One person, who unfortunately, no longer exists.


That's enough to not be rational?

[Ksandra]

But it isn't hyperbole.

In fact, there's a lot of irony in there considering there's so many here that are equating the perils of frat parties with primarily alcohol and rape. Saying, 'if a girl can't navigate the perils of a frat party' is supposed to be a disgusting remark because the writer is implying a girl should be able to negotiate her way out of a violent sexual assault. When that's not AT ALL what's happening because we all know (or should know?) that frat parties are not cesspools of rape. That is, unless you're going to go on believing obama's 1/4 women BS

So if you're on board with only calling rape things that are violent and forceful... then you should have no trouble understanding where the writer is coming from when they do the whole "if a girl can't do this she'll never be an important leader"
And if you can't see that, then you're probably under the impression a frat party is rape central... which would be in line with the 1/4 figure... which would be in line with looking at someone being rape, guilty sex is rape, tipsy sex is rape, telling a girl she's pretty but not really meaning it is rape, etc etc

See where the "misogynists" are coming from?

Statistics on rape and whether women can get a leadership job do not connect.

I do not think 1/4 people are raped. Nor do I think frat parties are a cesspool of rape.

That doesn't mean those who are or could be raped at a party can't be strong leaders. Show me statistical data that those who are raped are not in leadership positions.

Show me the science behind a significant portion of rapes happening because the victim didn't say no. Show proof.

[Karbuncle]

Serious question:

Do you honestly think the vast majority of rape cases are a result of women not articulating well enough that they didn't want it?

Sorry for ditching and reading this so late,

The question seems... odd? Unless I read the article wrong, nothing in this quote (The one I'm responding to your response on, in full) feels to me like its in regards to (I guess, Actual) rape.

I am continually shocked and dismayed by the nearly Victorian notions promulgated by today’s feminists about the fragility of women and their naïve helplessness in asserting control over their own dating lives. Female undergraduates incapable of negotiating the oafish pleasures and perils of campus fraternity parties are hardly prepared to win leadership positions in business or government in the future.

Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong but it seems to me like they're talking about the points that feminists make it seem like women are incapable of their own thought or ability to say "No" or have consensual, spontaneous sex, in any situation such as college parties and such, mainly the author seems to be attacking the concept that "Yes means Yes" paints it as if women will just submit willingly to non-consensual sex because they're just too shy or weak to speak up, forcing the man to get some form of solid evidence that she said yes in case she decides to claim rape later.

I'm sorry, I'm not articulating what I'm trying to say well, but the way I interpret what they're saying is in regards to feminisms penchant for "Regret = Rape" though indirectly. There are two different types of rapists if we look at feminism vs real life definition. Man A is going to rape someone regardless, he's a criminal. Man B engages in what he believes in consensual sex, later the women regrets her choice, now Man B is a rapist because he can't prove she said yes. Man B Would likely never rape a women and would have left if she had said "no", but since she didn't and he can't prove a "Yes" was spoken he's in a tight spot as rapist.

I think Situation/Man B is what the authors intent to address was. That there are these types of "Rapes"(By feminist definition) that come about because they like to claim regret is rape, this man would normally never commit rape but since the women was apparently too damsel and weak to say "No" that this "Rape" occurred, therefor there should be laws to help these Regret = Rape """""""""""""""""Victims""""""""""""""""

And Honestly I apologize if you think its "Rape" when a man and women have sex because the women just decides she doesn't want to speak up and say she is uncomfortable with the sexual advances, if sober.

And for the record, I do not apply to Drunkeness. I think if a women is drunk and you decide to have sex with her you are taking your life into your own hands, but I also believe this is a huge double standard as it implies that the man who was likely also drunk is to blame for the act of two drunk people engaging in sex, if two drunk people have sex, they're either both rapists or neither are, and this I think is something we can all agree on. I think at he very least its morally detestable for a sober man or woman to take advantage of a wasted/heavily drunk individual, regardless of their words.

Edit: Sorry I'm not articulating well I hope you understand the gist of it.
Edit2: and I think I'm done editing now. Sorry.

[archibaldcrane]

Ok, so tell me which woman who was unable to "successfully negotiate the pleasures and perils of frat parties" is not able to be a leader later in life?

A) Girl who gets tipsy, fucks a guy, and regrets it the next morning.
B) Girl who gets sloppy drunk with slurred speech and trouble standing who wakes up the next morning with jizz leaking out of her, having no idea what happened.
C) Girl who passes out drunk and is forcibly raped

Girl A made a poor decision about drinking and sex. Does that mean she's not fit to be a leader 10, 20, 30 years down the line?

Girls B and C made bad decisions about drinking and were raped. Again, not knowing your own tolerance for alcohol...in college...is somehow proof that they are hardly prepared to be leaders decades later?

Virtually everyone who drinks has gotten too drunk for their own good, most people numerous times, especially at college parties.

Making the connection between drinking too much in college (the only thing girls B and C "did wrong" ) and their leadership prospects down the line is patently absurd.

[Karbuncle]

Ok, so tell me which woman who was unable to "successfully negotiate the pleasures and perils of frat parties" is not able to be a leader later in life?

A) Girl who gets tipsy, fucks a guy, and regrets it the next morning.
B) Girl who gets sloppy drunk with slurred speech and trouble standing who wakes up the next morning with jizz leaking out of her, having no idea what happened.
C) Girl who passes out drunk and is forcibly raped

Girl A made a poor decision about drinking and sex. Does that mean she's not fit to be a leader 10, 20, 30 years down the line?

Girls B and C made bad decisions about drinking and were raped. Again, not knowing your own tolerance for alcohol...in college...is somehow proof that they are hardly prepared to be leaders decades later?

Virtually everyone who drinks has gotten too drunk for their own good, most people numerous times, especially at college parties.

Making the connection between drinking too much in college (the only thing girls B and C "did wrong" ) and their leadership prospects down the line is patently absurd.

Your questions add nothing to what I have already addressed and, sorry, seem like a strawman or I think you're misunderstanding the Author and possibly me. But, I guess again I will say, I am not, nor have I been discussing or approving that its okay to fuck someone who is drunk, male or female, neither do I believe the Author is. I only mentioned "Drunk" in the above post to cover my ass from precisely this response as I saw it was brought up a page or so ago inbetween my initial response and the previous one. Worked well for me though huh.

Anyway, the way I'm reading it is the topic they're(Author) addressing is that Feminists paint women like they're helpless, and that the way feminists paint females and their ability to give consent or think and act for themselves by that light would make them terrible leaders if the can't even handle telling a drunk or otherwise gentleman than they are simply not interested in sex, and just give in to being "raped" because speaking up is such a difficulty for them.

I have to reread it because Im thinking i missed something, but yeah... it seems like the quote to follow is saying "Feminists paint women as helpless weak creatures, if we are to believe how feminist view women, how can they be prepared for the perils or realities of being in a position of high power where much more tense social interactions can take place at any given time?" I do in fact see truth in this statement, though its not 1 to 1 and the comparison is a leap. But I also see nowhere in the quoted sections where it mentions alcohol though... so I'm not sure where "Being drunk" is pulled into this argument other than giving you a strawman to burn. However if I'm wrong then oops and shit, can you point out where the Author mentions it pertaining to drunk women, can honestly I might have overlooked it.

But regardless, I don't think the authors own opinion is saying these women aren't ready, they're saying if we're to believe feminists view on women and their ability to enact their own will on others being so helpless that they can't even work up the courage to reject unwanted advances or "mingle", how can we expect them to lead in positions of power which require a forceful and ever present hand, which is another goal feminists want.

I am continually shocked and dismayed by the nearly Victorian notions promulgated by today’s feminists about the fragility of women and their naïve helplessness in asserting control over their own dating lives. Female undergraduates incapable of negotiating the oafish pleasures and perils of campus fraternity parties are hardly prepared to win leadership positions in business or government in the future

Again could be wrong on my interpretation of the Authors intent, "oh no" if I am, I'm not now nor have I ever been saying being sober and fucking someone whos plastered is an okay thing to do. Frankly I'm confused as to how it was brought up as I read nothing that implied "Drunk" was involved in the Authors topic, though I read only the quoted excerpt as that seemed to be the part the poster wanted to discuss.

Edit > Done Editing, Apologies, Hopefully you see the finished product.... If i don't respond immediately I may have fallen asleep, but I will continue this discussion if I do, tomorrow. Or not, I don't know. But I appreciate the debate.

[Churchill]

Archie's problem is he wants men to live in the 1950's and be shackled to those old timey values that don't apply to our modern society of free-thinking, independent men.

Also,

B) Girl who gets sloppy drunk with slurred speech and trouble standing who wakes up the next morning with jizz leaking out of her, having no idea what happened.

Girl B might have been raped, she might not have been raped. I was temp banned because I don't remember having sex, which I can only infer means that I wasn't raped and I was being overzealous in my argument.

If that's not the case, then the temp ban is some lewd victim shaming.

[archibaldcrane]

Archie's problem is he wants men to live in the 1950's and be shackled to those old timey values that don't apply to our modern society of free-thinking, independent men.

I have no idea what this means. I had no problem in my own life hooking up with dozens of women without making them feel violated or feeling like I, uh, had to marry them or something? I don't know what the 1950's have to do with any of this.

If "don't fuck drunk chicks that you don't trust or that don't trust you" makes me old fashioned...then yes, I'm old fashioned.

It works great.

If you want to be, uh, free thinking and independent (whatever that means), well - good luck young man.

[Eurell]

Archi can get pretty ridiculous at times, but come the fuck on. All he's saying is that shit that happens at a college party has fuck all to do about whether that woman can be in a leadership position decades later. It's not a hard concept.

[Zetanio]

Archi can get pretty ridiculous at times, but come the fuck on. All he's saying is that shit that happens at a college party has fuck all to do about whether that woman can be in a leadership position decades later. It's not a hard concept.

I rarely chime in here but Arch is actually making the right point. You guys are being complete idiots if you think there is factual causation in this.

[Ksandra]

Archi can get pretty ridiculous at times, but come the fuck on. All he's saying is that shit that happens at a college party has fuck all to do about whether that woman can be in a leadership position decades later. It's not a hard concept.

This was what I was trying to get at, too. People are harping on her statement about women defending themselves at parties, and are completely ignoring her comment about them not surviving business later on. It's ridiculous.

[dasva]

I did not mean reported cases. To me, if someone says they don't want it or try to physically resist, and are forced into it anyway that's rape. I don't consider drunk guilt to be rape unless it's like a date rape drug situation or something similar.


Your definition might be different than mine.

I'd say anything where some sort of force was used like physical or use of duress or forcing drugs into them. Which is why I say which definition of cases kind of matters as something like that or what you said would exclude most if not all of the not explaining yourself clearly... but also would exclude a very large part of that 1/4 garbage too which I think is were the article was getting at with the whole navigating frat parties. ie knowing how to not put yourself in a position you will regret later. Don't think it was saying preventing rape is completely on the victim

Also what happened to this thread last night lol

[Melena]

One person, who unfortunately, no longer exists.


That's enough to not be rational?

While it was a small subset (I believe Maz and a couple others were on the same side), they still pushed that agenda as the only solution. An irrational few can make more noise then a silent majority.

[Charismatic]

Pretty sure archi was right there with them on that nonsense too.

[Churchill]

Which is why none of us care what his point is, because it doesn't matter the specifics. If the lady in the article had said, "Going to a party, getting shitfaced and waking up leaking semen doesn't mean you were raped." we'd be having the same discussion.

[archibaldcrane]

Pretty sure archi was right there with them on that nonsense too.

Pretty sure you have an unwillingness to see this as anything other than black and white.