Feminist Philosophy

[Gokku]

You're right it's not the meat of the argument. Insofar as I don't want it to be distracting, I'll concede that I could misunderstand the mentality given that I'm far from an active participant in 4chan. But the counterpoint I would bring up is that, yes, by identifying as female you remove a level of anonymity. But isn't the default assumption that you are male? And, AFAIK, even when you post something that outs yourself as a male, you are not told "Balls/Dick or GTFO." Comparatively, a female on 4chan is told "Tits or GTFO" immediately upon any identifying information, even if she doesn't initially introduce herself as a femanon,

Ive always viewed it as this with "tits or gtfo" is that it means no one cares if your female. In most online settings its not needed information, I ran an LS in ffxi for years and we had plenty of ladys in my LS but one thing every one of them understood was i gave 0 fucks about them being female if its not "TITS" then "GTFO" and play your fucking class i got shit to get.

[FNH]

Ive always viewed it as this with "tits or gtfo" is that it means no one cares if your female. In most online settings its not needed information, I ran an LS in ffxi for years and we had plenty of ladys in my LS but one thing every one of them understood was i gave 0 fucks about them being female if its not "TITS" then "GTFO" and play your fucking class i got shit to get.

I interpret it more as the only thing we care about concerning them being female is to show tits, which is sexist.

[Gokku]

what more should you be concerned about? In a setting or conversation where the persons sex has NO relevance how is it sexist to tell someone to take their gender and either apply it in a way that "I"*aka tits* care about or gtfo?

Is the issue in that theres no male response? there is its just something along the lines of " NO ONE CARES *insert slur / insult*!!!111" followed by heckling for hours.

[NynJa]

You realize you're using 4chan as your focal point...4chan, the place where shitting dick nipples reigns supreme.

[Gredival]

what more should you be concerned about? In a setting or conversation where the persons sex has NO relevance how is it sexist to tell someone to take their gender and either apply it in a way that "I"*aka tits* care about or gtfo?

Is the issue in that theres no male response? there is its just something along the lines of " NO ONE CARES *insert slur / insult*!!!111" followed by heckling for hours.

It's not that they get shit. Everyone gets shit on 4chan, the problem is that if an anon posting on /b/ is revealed to be female, then she can't do anything - make requests, participate in the threads, etc. - unless she posts her breasts. It's basically a participation fee ONLY imposed on females. Your business is only considered after breasts are shown. Males have the privilege of bypassing that.

For what it's worth, I don't really count mobile games like Candy Crush or Farmville as gaming, you play for a few minutes twice a day and that's it, not really gaming, imo. I'd be interested to see where females fall in terms of traditional gaming versus the cell phone game market. I mean my mom plays some online casino game, and I do not consider her a gamer, nor would she consider herself one.

http://www.theesa.com/wp-content/upl...SA_EF_2014.pdf

shows 52%/48% split of players with a 50/50 split on purchasers, which could be written off as moms? Casual/social/board/card/puzzle make up 58% of their online games played most often, and 77% of mobile games played most often. I would think if they include people who play freecell it would skew the numbers a bit.

That's the problem though. Many people use this data that shows females are 50% of the demographic as evidence that the industry can't hide behind "We're marketing towards our market - 15+ males." That there would be, if the industry tried, a demand for more games that appeal to women instead of catering to the prototypical "male fantasy." That it's not business holding the gaming industry back, it's prejudice (whether it is ignorant or overt).

But the first line response to this is always that "No women aren't gamers; this data is skewed because it includes people who are not gamers." Insert possible additional straw-man arguments (ranging from how all girls are just attention whores "I'm a grrrl gamer - don't hit on me teehee~" who aren't gamers, or how every girl they've ever been in a guild with sucked but weaseled lotting rights from the lonely officers.)

Then it devolves into an argument about "male privilege" creating an exclusionary space where females can't be "real" gamers and how it's this type of harassment that prevents women from revealing themselves as female on the internet.

The reason I'm asking for numbers is because it's the way to cut through that bullshit. Let's just agree that Kim Kardashian's mobile game with 1.6M users or whatever is probably 1.59M women. That still doesn't tell us how many women there are in the market for "real" games.

[Galkaeater]

It's not that they get shit. Everyone gets shit on 4chan, the problem is that if an anon posting on /b/ is revealed to be female, then she can't do anything - make requests, participate in the threads, etc. - unless she posts her breasts. It's basically a participation fee ONLY imposed on females. Your business is only considered after breasts are shown. Males have the privilege of bypassing that.

You Do realise that you don't actually HAVE to post tits.

[Charismatic]

And that because they are Anonymous they can just ignore the requests and continue on as nothing happened because aside from shit boards with IDs, no one will know. And even on the boards with IDs, the IDs only persist for that one thread. Its a non-issue.

And yes, Gred, male is considered the default because most of the users are male. No shit.
A vast majority of users of that site are and always have been male since day one.

(Also, people are shit on for nearly everything that falls outside of the on 4chan custom. Even being a normal person. Being a "normie" or "normalfag" is considered a bad thing.)

[Gredival]

You are getting distracted by the "Well they should just do this..." rebuttal to the example. The point is "Look this is fucked up, and there's a reason why it happens."

[Charismatic]

I don't think its fucked up though. Its part of that site's culture. If you don't like it, you don't have to go there.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to mention that this phenom persists even on boards that are primarily female such as /cgl/ and /ck/ because females will post tits or gtfo just as fast as a guy when someone posts that they are female and it is not relevant to the discussion. No one cares about actually seeing tits nor do they even expect it.

Without actually understanding the site's culture (and the specifics of each board, 'cause they are all different from each other in various ways though there are cross-board memes such as the one we're discussing), you probably shouldn't even comment on this. It actually has nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with being put back in line for falling outside of the site's norms.

[Gredival]

I don't think its fucked up though. Its part of that site's culture. If you don't like it, you don't have to go there.

1. So as long as one can choose to separate themselves from the discrimination it's not messed up?

2. Site cultures evolve as a result of the type of user they cultivate. In 4chan's case, you have misogyny. The point is, where is that misogyny coming from? Hateful and discriminatory people don't just pop up. They are a reflection of the culture they live in and are raised in. In other words, 4chan reflects the existing misogyny in modern culture. It's an extreme reflection of the harms created by perpetuated gender norms. It's evidence of the fact there's a problem and it needs to be fixed.

Also, I'd like to mention that this phenom persists even on boards that are primarily female such as /cgl/ and /ck/ because females will post tits or gtfo just as fast as a guy when someone posts that they are female and it is not relevant to the discussion. No one cares about actually seeing tits nor do they even expect it.

People who are oppressed internalize the prejudices. Are you familiar with the infamous "doll test" from Brown v. Board of Education, that was used to show how black children internalized racism? TL;DR is that black children around pre-school age had already internalized the discrimination of society such that they inherently believe that white was superior to black. http://www.theroot.com/articles/cult..._11_facts.html

Such psychological effects extend to gender norms and sexism. See my previous example (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...ves-stray.html) about how women in relationships with stay at home dads begin to find their partners less and less attractive. Think of women raised to believe that their role is to settle down, find a man, support him, and bear children.

Without actually understanding the site's culture, you probably shouldn't even comment on this. It actually has nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with being put back in line for falling outside of the site's norms.

It has everything to do with sexism.

Being "put in line" for deviating from the norm? That doesn't strike you in the slightest as discrimination-justification? Not ringing a bell about how lynchings were about putting "uppity negroes" back in line?

"Oh the site just happens to be mostly men, it's nothing sexist." That's just the way the cookie crumbles there's more of us, so shut up and deal with it? You can't justify oppressing a minority because it happens to be a minority. Disparate treatment for being a member of a minority is the literal textbook definition of discrimination.

[Koul]

Here.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/there-...n-the-internet

it has a fun video and everything. And then the encyclopedia dramatica explanation:

https://encyclopediadramatica.se/GTFO

tl;dr
tits or gtfo used to be used on internet noobs/attention whores to get them to sftu because nobody cared if you were a chick. Now, thanks to the internet being absolutely mainstream, peoples feelings got intertwined with everything and now the sarcasm and tongue-in-cheekness of the statement is ruined. If you take anything that is said on 4chan as serious, you're doing it wrong.

[Charismatic]

1. So as long as one can choose to separate themselves from the discrimination it's not messed up?

Yes. And its not so much choosing to separate themselves from it and more choosing not to go directly to it. You must go to 4chan. It does not come to you.
With that said, I don't feel the rest of your post is worth responding to.

[Gredival]

Yes. And its not so much choosing to separate themselves from it and more choosing not to go directly to it. You must go to 4chan. It does not come to you.
With that said, I don't feel the rest of your post is worth responding to.

And you are missing the issue.

This isn't about whether or not 4chan is a terrible place. This isn't about how much harassment is the woman's fault for going to a place where women aren't welcome. This isn't about whether a woman "should know better" than to go there.

This is about the fact that 4chan is evidence of sexism in society, outside the site. The users act this way because their behavior is normalized and rationalized. That, in turn, is based on sexism embedded in our ingrained gender norms.

4chan is only in this discussion to attempt to prove to naysayers that sexism is alive and well.

tits or gtfo used to be used on internet noobs/attention whores to get them to sftu because nobody cared if you were a chick. Now, thanks to the internet being absolutely mainstream, peoples feelings got intertwined with everything and now the sarcasm and tongue-in-cheekness of the statement is ruined. If you take anything that is said on 4chan as serious, you're doing it wrong.

The expectation or literalness of the demand is irrelevant. The mere existence of the joke proves the point because it's only funny because of sexism.

The relevant standard to consider is whether the joke is still witty/funny with reversed or same gender. Example: Was the WC3 voice line about the human female mating call being "I'm so wasted! I'm so wasted!" sexist? Ultimately the line is funny, but it's only funny because of some unfunny realities of hook up culture where women are preyed on.

[Charismatic]

Would you like it better if it were "Conform or GTFO"? (I'm guessing you would, but they don't want you to like it)
On 4chan it has quite literally the same meaning but the users there are not the type to get butthurt about it (and that's the kind of user that is valued there).

They do not want the type of person that cannot take a joke.
They do not want the type of person that will over-analyze a joke.

This type of thing continues to exist to keep people like you away from the site, not women.

EDIT: The only reason a "Dicks or GTFO" doesn't exist is that it doesn't work. Yes, its been tried. The only thing that happens is guys whip out their cocks and that's not the actual intended reaction. The pressure to conform is exerted onto guys too but in other, actually effective, ways.

[Gredival]

Everyone is focusing 4chan, and not the point. (It appears that insulting 4chan is the rough equivalent to offending SJWs with offensive terminology.)

I was merely attempting to go for low hanging fruit. 4chan is irrelevant, it was a (failed) example to try illustrate modern day sexism in first world Western society.

When feminists say there is still sexism in modern society, they don't mean the same type of sexism as in fundamentalist Middle Eastern countries where women are punished for "seducing" men to rape them. They don't mean that we're still in the 50's where the only job a woman could have was secretary, and it was only until she got married and settled down to pop out babies. We're talking about lingering gender norms and double standards that persists in society. It's the inherent, subtle, ingrained sexism.

Looking in from the outside, it might not seem like a big deal. Especially when the arguments are over ultimately trivial things like how much skin gets shown in video games and comics. However, when you see things like problem of rape cultures on campus, you should realize that it can be quite the big deal.

Everyone can profess to believe that the sexes should be treated equal in society. Everyone can profess to act on that simple principle. But there's quite a bit of gap between reality and ideal still.

And again, sexism isn't just about the problems with how men treat women. It's also about how women treat men. It's about how women treat other women and how men treat other men. It's about how both men and women look at themselves.

[FNH]

How much of it is internalized vs. self-perpetuating? The example video games I posted were relatively popular games marketed toward a female audience. They wouldn't make those games if there was a large enough opposition to them, or a large enough sect that wants a strong female lead in some other genre. How many mothers buy female oriented or gender neutral games for their daughters or girls for themselves? Heck, insert any feminine toy. Most women if asked about their favorite childhood toy a large percentage would probably say easy bake oven or a barbie. I doubt dads are buying them, honestly.

[Koul]

Everyone is focusing 4chan, and not the point. (It appears that insulting 4chan is the rough equivalent to offending SJWs with offensive terminology.)

Mm. No. You don't understand how 4chan works. Or the culture of it and we're trying to explain it to you. Yes, it's a misogyonistic place. It's also homophobic and racist and transphobic and everything horrible that could ever be, is there. That is it's allure and it's deterrent. Everyone is welcome on there unless you want to parade around the fact you have X body part or Y personality trait/disorder/characteristic/whatever. You are supposed to be exactly like everyone there. On that site, you are supposed to be the default straight white basement dwelling animu loving neckbeard male.

[Charismatic]

Mm. No. You don't understand how 4chan works. Or the culture of it and we're trying to explain it to you. Yes, it's a misogyonistic place. It's also homophobic and racist and transphobic and everything horrible that could ever be, is there. That is it's allure and it's deterrent. Everyone is welcome on there unless you want to parade around the fact you have X body part or Y personality trait/disorder/characteristic/whatever. You are supposed to be exactly like everyone there. On that site, you are supposed to be the default straight white basement dwelling animu loving neckbeard male.

I really am beginning to think that explaining it won't work. You either get it intuitively or you just don't get it (which is probably why lurk moar was a thing)
There's a certain level of cognitive dissonance required to be an active 4chan user because in the minds of the users, everyone is the same yet not.
Everyone holds the same opinions but still argue over differences in opinion and so on.

Everyone is all of the things you mentioned (misogynist, racist, transphobic, homophobic and more) yet not, with few exceptions.
When its jokes and the memes that have been perpetuated since time immemorial, its fine. If someone seems to be serious about it, its not fine... 'cept on /pol/. But we actually understand that as people who've used the site for a while but an outsider would not understand this. But again, I don't think any amount of explaining is going to change this so we may as well just stop.

[Lyall]

It's not about your having tits. It's about the tits being completely irrelevant to the conversation.

Imagine if you were discussing your favorite pizza toppings. Someone comes into the thread and says "As a woman, I prefer pineapple." In this example, being a woman is completely prepositional. No one gives a fuck about your parts. They might as well have said "As a kodiak bear, I prefer pineapple." Or "As someone who drives a blue car, I prefer pineapple." It has literally no bearing on the discussion of pizza toppings.

Edit: Or I can miss the "stop explaining" part.

[Salodin]

Gred understands this, but says it doesn't matter because it's very existence is all those things regardless of the context.

What I'm understanding is that regardless of your intent or apathy, the actions or words are still misogynistic, racist, transphobic, etc. He says it matters regardless of intent, while the others disagree. What I wonder is, if the intent isn't there then do the words or actions carry the same meaning.

Basically, stick and stones break bones, but do words break them too?