Patch 2.5 Notes

[Stef]

Welcome to BG. They do this with everything here, basically.

Hah, yeah... I actually had an "inb4 Welcome to BG" in my earlier post but ended up deleting it.

[Sho]

See, it's comments like these that make it hard to tell if you're posting sarcastically.

It's not sarcasm at all. The team pulled off a rendition of FFVII's Gold Saucer which more or less became a resounding success upon implementation. Not only did it remain faithful to it's roots, but also show that the team can put together an MMO that pulls off minigames pretty well. I mean the complaints for Gold Saucer are pretty much limited to wanting to be able to forfeit TT matches, low TT Card drop rates and special snowflake gamers wanting Bunny Ears on their male characters. Two of those complaints are reasonable, both of which are minor fixes. It's a success.

I know your pessimism matches my optimism in equal measure, but complaining about side game content fun is just silly. Why complain about MORE fun things to do in game?

[Elcura]

I don't get it either. All things considered GS is a huge success even if it isn't your thing (it certainly isn't mine but it would be stupid to say it was a failure) and gives them options to expand. Honestly people are too critical and naturally focus on what they want (which is fine) but it usually leads to people saying stupid shit instead of enjoying the game for what it is.

Some complaints are legitimate and necessary, but most of them are just bitches being bitches.

[Destinye]

To be honest the "not caring about details" is honestly more of a "I don't want to" than "PS3 limitations"..

Look at some monsters, even cross assets used in XI and XIV. If you were to attack the 'Dread/Ash Dragon' model in XI from the sides or back and took hate, it would attack you with its hind legs or tail. In XIV, it just spins around.

XI is a PS2 game.
XIV is a PC > PS3/PS4 game.

Even with higher detailed textures that doesn't suddenly make it impossible to have little details that make things seem more "alive" and less floaty. If anything it should be even more detailed. One can call it a nitpick as much as they want, but just the tiny things that they seem to put into the details in XI versus XIV is just..it's almost like they don't care. Is it bad? No, but you'd have to wonder the same company that can put forth so much effort and detail into stuff you normally won't care about or notice to suddenly doing less than the Korean developers who whip up MMOs on a daily basis* isn't really a bad thing to contemplate. It just means you want them to do more like they used to.

"Oh but the amount of detail in XIV blah blah blah."

Well yeah, but not only does most of your clothes and weapons clips, most objects you can phase through as if they don't even exist, so it's just a big "huh..." kind of moment more than nitpicking.

*(Koreans really don't make MMOs everyday, it just feels like.)

[Elcura]

I get the impression you never played 1.0. If you did, you'd understand why style over substance doesn't work.

[Niiro]

Because XIV has such substance?

[Elcura]

Because XIV has such substance?

Considering they favour game play over graphics then...yes? I'm not sure if this is a serious question or if you're just being stupid.

[Niiro]

1 meaningful event you can't sleep through and can only do once a week every 2 major patches does not make for favorable gameplay content to me.

[Kaslo]

1 meaningful event you can't sleep through and can only do once a week every 2 major patches does not make for favorable gameplay content to me.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/11bef2417...l6nno6_250.gif

[Elcura]

1 meaningful event you can't sleep through and can only do once a week every 2 major patches does not make for favorable gameplay content to me.

I...I just don't even know why you're still talking. Are we even having a conversation or are you just saying the first thing that pops into your head?

Also, got the answer to my previous question.

[Destinye]

I get the impression you never played 1.0. If you did, you'd understand why style over substance doesn't work.

I've played 1.0 - 1.23, I've even reverse engineered it. Trust me, Style and substance can work, XIV 1.0's main fault, aside being incomplete, was being on a cinematic engine not suited for standard game design, let alone MMORPGs, which I believe Yoshida even explained too.

XI had both style and substance in many areas. They got rid of a lot of things they didn't need to because people complained. For example, monsters in 1.0 used to give you visual warnings to "gtfo" before they actually aggroed. Them removing that did nothing to enhance the game's playability. Monsters used to follow you, can be annoying..yes, but removing that didn't exactly fix 1.0's problems. (The engine.)

Being able to maim the great buffalo so it collapses and gives you a free DPS period and taking out it's constant AoEs was stylized as fuck as a battle system..removing that to simplify gameplay as to "not confuse new people to MMORPGs" doesn't really give the game substance.

This is what I mean by the attention to detail and care that even 1.x had, despite everything. A lot of stuff removed really wasn't good or bad for the game, they simply just needed an engine swap badly. XI was a custom engine, so them using a current engine for XIV was the start of all their issues. Then the server side checks for everything was the other problem. As you should recall, you could edit your character data in 2.0 - 2.1 by manipulating the session in Internet Explorer because everything but a very few instances were moved client side.

So yes, pure style over optimization isn't good, but why not have both when you've been shown capable of doing as such? That's why I don't really see it as nitpicking more than they could do so much more if they really wanted to.

[Elcura]

I'm not sure what reverse engineering has to do with anything so gonna skip that.

Trust me, Style and substance can work, XIV 1.0's main fault, aside being incomplete, was being on a cinematic engine not suited for standard game design, let alone MMORPGs, which I believe Yoshida even explained too.

XI had both style and substance in many areas. They got rid of a lot of things they didn't need to because people complained. For example, monsters in 1.0 used to give you visual warnings to "gtfo" before they actually aggroed. Them removing that did nothing to enhance the game's playability. Monsters used to follow you, can be annoying..yes, but removing that didn't exactly fix 1.0's problems. (The engine.)

Being able to maim the great buffalo so it collapses and gives you a free DPS period and taking out it's constant AoEs was stylized as fuck as a battle system..removing that to simplify gameplay as to "not confuse new people to MMORPGs" doesn't really give the game substance.

This is what I mean by the attention to detail and care that even 1.x had, despite everything. A lot of stuff removed really wasn't good or bad for the game, they simply just needed an engine swap badly. XI was a custom engine, so them using a current engine for XIV was the start of all their issues. Then the server side checks for everything was the other problem. As you should recall, you could edit your character data in 2.0 - 2.1 by manipulating the session in Internet Explorer because everything but a very few instances were moved client side.

No shit style and substance can work, just look at Bayonetta, TLoU, Dragon Age/ME etc, there are plenty of games that have both but that's not even close to what I was saying. I'm saying XIV 1.0 favoured style over substance, and that's why we had such a shitty (but pretty) game. 2.0 favours substance over style, so while it isn't as sharp looking or fluid it controls a hell of a lot better. Some people think having little details makes for a better game, and it does, but only when the game is actually good in the first place.

1.0 wasn't worth shit until Yoshida came along and made it actually fun, yet you want to blame that team for being lazy or not caring? That's hilarious considering how much they've revamped going into 1.23 and into 2.0 and how far the game has come in general.

XI was a twisted game that looked good but played like shit. So much had to change to make it playable and more than just an interactive chat with emotes and cute characters. Also 1.0's battle system was fucking dreadful are you kidding that stamina shit combined with sitting around waiting for BRs to function properly was the worst. The only thing slightly tolerable about that scenario was as a tank or healer. I don't want to talk about it more it's giving me hives, but it does kind of explain why you think XI had style and substance. Not to mention the Great Buffalo scenario is easily reproducible in 2.0, but whether it's necessary is another discussion.

In the end, they changed engine because it was necessary in order to focus on what people wanted (a good game) more than what was there (a pretty game). None of the reviews for 1.0 bashed how it looked or sounded, but they sure as hell blasted everything else.

So yes, pure style over optimization isn't good, but why not have both when you've been shown capable of doing as such? That's why I don't really see it as nitpicking more than they could do so much more if they really wanted to.

Of course focusing on style isn't good and yet you want to talk like XIV has no style when really all you want are minor details that most people could totally live without (but wouldn't mind). Also I'm not sure if SE does know how to prioritize good game play over graphics, because most of the FF series has focused on graphics and production quality. There aren't a lot of SE games that I can say have both overall and there certainly aren't a lot of FF games that have both. Even XV has examples of focusing on style over substance just from the demo, you can't expect me to believe SE generally knows the difference but Yoshida has multiple times and continues to do so. I like that at the very least.

[Lucavi]

Because XIV has such substance?

Considering XIV is an actual success... yeah. I'd say it had such substance.

Goddamn, Niiro. What happened to you? You used to at least temper your emotions with logic. Step back for a bit and re-examine the things you're saying.

[Niiro]

A million flies can't be wrong.

[Karbuncle]

There's a lot i miss from XI that aren't just rose-tinted glasses, and I know XI's still there but its not like XIV couldn't really improve upon some good ideas XI had. I loved NMs, even shitty ones. I enjoyed hunting obscure items even if they were useless, I loved camping them with friends, even if it took forever for it to spawn seeing/killing it always gave me a thrill even if I didnt get the drop (Fuck Unut btw). It was about the whole experience of camping/claiming/killing the NM I loved, not just the mob with a fancy name. (So i swear to god if any of you are stupid enough to suggest Hunts are an adequate substitute I dont even know how you turn on your computer.)

I miss content that isn't Trash Grinder > Boss > Trash Grinder > Boss > Etcetc. Every dungeon has a different backdrop but its all the exact same dungeon with the mob models changed. I'd like events like Sky, Sea, Nyzul, Salvage... ESPECIALLY something like Neo-Nyzul where it was real fast paced, Randomized, and you were on a time limit... even if it was random. When it comes to Sky and Sea I don't want an obvious direct copy and paste, but something like a Mix between that Tiered-NM pop system and Abysseas Spawn-Item spawn system would be nice. The zones could even be instanced (I.E the open mobs would be free fodder but when you got to pop the enemy its an instance like BCNMs). Speaking of which I miss BCNMs too. Look, XI isn't the holy grail of gaming but it had a lot of good ideas. XIV has the base for a good game in place I agree so much, but I wish they would take a few more ideas from XI, some of the better ones.

I'll admit a lot f the problems I have with FFXIV stems from the I.Lv systems simplicity means there is absolutely no room for valuable content other than the Main-Raid for max I.lv and the Token-Grinder Face-swap dungeons for charity gear. They only ever release 2 Sets of max level equipment at a time due to it being replaced so quick and likely because they're focused on pumping out content asap so theres little time to add more horizontal choices. Still, It looks like the expansion will cover a few concerns, and hopefully it grows into a more complex itemization system. I mean it doesn't need to be Diablo2/FFXI worthy but something... more... would be lovely.

I have fun when I can get my friends on but when I'm alone Its flaws show, and I realize while I can easily find randoms whos only words will be Hi and Bye, its not the same and the lack of community severely kills my mood to play. I miss being able to make friends. You cant in XIV, at least not as easily as it was in XI due to how exp worked. Even when i join FATE/Hunt parties almost no one talks at all. This kind of MMO just seems to attract the antisocial.

OKay I'm done I'm just ranting now.

[Drai]

the only thing I truly miss from FFXI were things like Sky and Sea, where I could grab a group of friends and go out and farm some triggers, and then once the triggers were farmed you could grab your LS and go up and fight End Game level monsters, obviously I don't want the way they were initially implemented (Looking at you Ulli D: ) but the forced pop versions that currently exist, no reason we can't have that in the expansion in addition to the Raids, two seperate paths that lead to the same end result.

[Seravi Edalborez]

1.0 was ok ideas with really really bad execution. Rather, with no actual content and with an unenjoyable and random (initially) grind.

Incapacitation could have been cool. I didn't personally mind the stamina bar, you could have easily kept it and tweaked combat pace in other ways. I didn't really mind fatigue either but I'm one of those people who worked around it rather than throught it. So I hit 50 in a bunch of jobs at once rather than plow through horrible exp gain. The little animation mocap touches were really good. The cross class system had some potential but for obvious reasons interfered with the holy trinity since the game's other initial flaws prevented them from fixing "THM does everything" for a long while.

No "endgame" was not cool. The menu lag was atrocious. Animation lock was dumb as fuck and pacing was awful. Copy paste landscape etc.

Had some good ideas but they got too scared of continuing when people hated "the game". It was different for the sake of being different and I don't think that was a bad thing in and of itself. They just took it too far and didn't know what the fuck to do.

[Lucavi]

Not knowing what the fuck to do as a company in charge of something... that's not a good method for success.

Also, while we're on the topic of XI players being enamored with all of 1.0's XI-isms, did anyone "enjoy" the fatigue system?

[Stef]

did anyone "enjoy" the fatigue system?

Hipster Tanaka is just misunderstood!

[Lokus]

Are we pretending the Stamina bar doesn't currently exist in 2.0? Cause the TP bar would like to say hi.