Men v Women : Sexodus

[Xantavia]

If feminism has minimized the gender role of men, how are they still stuck in their gender role?

Your post contradicts itself.

Certain aspects are in full force as far as I know. Men seem to still be in charge of dating. They have to initiate the contact to make a first date. They have to pay for it. They propose to the woman when it comes to marriage. I'm not denying that some woman take charge and do all these things, but it has be the minority. Woman want equality, which they should, except when it comes to relationships. Then it falls back to traditional gender roles.

[GoggleHead]

The thing is, even though men are expected to initiate dating, we've simultaneously cultivated an atmosphere of animosity in which men are discouraged from approaching women in any capacity lest they be perceived as predatory. How do you approach women in a society where any unwanted approach constitutes harassment?

[Thunder]

Thunder, you're doing god's work in here. Keep it up.

lol, thought you were just being sarcastic so I stayed away

thanks man

I guess to be more specific, it minimizes the necessity of the role. No contradiction, as Salodin pointed out.

I get what you're saying, and even if I buy into it.. then what? Like, is it up to the men to find purpose or women to go back to giving men purpose?

It sounds like the classic "i need the woman to be happy" and that kind of approach just doesn't fly well in "getting girls" today (it's the woman-on-pedestal thing). So your post doesn't really change how I thought about the situation. Have to be happy/fulfilled yourself before you go out and try and slay bitchez - I think that's a pretty cool side effect on men feminism has had (if it's actually been feminism is another story, though)

[Charismatic]

What fantasy world are you living in where that has even happened? You say its a pretty cool side effect on men yet it isn't even reality.
What am I reading?

[archibaldcrane]

But isn't Japan one of the worst industrialized economies in the world when it comes to gender inequality? You'd think they'd be having this "problem" last, not first.

[archibaldcrane]

I think he's saying that the pressure to up your worth as a man is a side effect of women upping theirs.

Obviously this could be seen positively or negatively.

[Darus Grey]

I get what you're saying, and even if I buy into it.. then what? Like, is it up to the men to find purpose or women to go back to giving men purpose?

Honestly, I don't know. If I even thought I really knew, I'd be out there doing seminars.


It's hard, If I had to speculate though, I'd say the first thing that needs to be done is to remove the conflicting messages. As someone points out, men are expected to initiate but are actively discouraged from doing so(this is the "too troubling" aspect).

The second is probably to reform marriage, divorce, and custody in society. Marriage is a negative value proposition for most men and well figuring out how to encourage them and help them find a place may be lofty, we can at least stop discouraging them by making the family playing field more fair(this is the true negative value proposition).

Third is probably to increase fairness in society in general, if everyone had a relatively easy time making a living wage, I imagine these problems would be severely less apparent.

Beyond that, it's hard to see, in my view men are in a really difficult position in modern society.. Women have all the reproductive power and force in society, so the reality is that men have been bred to be what women want over the course of human evolution, if that's no longer the case, where does that leave us? We've been bred for a purpose that no longer exists, well women share our traditional roles(unless there's a risk of dying, then they're more than happy to let us do that).

[BerenTebogo]

Honestly, I don't know. If I even thought I really knew, I'd be out there doing seminars.


It's hard, If I had to speculate though, I'd say the first thing that needs to be done is to remove the conflicting messages. As someone points out, men are expected to initiate but are actively discouraged from doing so(this is the "too troubling" aspect).

The second is probably to reform marriage, divorce, and custody in society. Marriage is a negative value proposition for most men and well figuring out how to encourage them and help them find a place may be lofty, we can at least stop discouraging them by making the family playing field more fair(this is the true negative value proposition).

Third is probably to increase fairness in society in general, if everyone had a relatively easy time making a living wage, I imagine these problems would be severely less apparent.

Beyond that, it's hard to see, in my view men are in a really difficult position in modern society.. Women have all the reproductive power and force in society, so the reality is that men have been bred to be what women want over the course of human evolution, if that's no longer the case, where does that leave us? We've been bred for a purpose that no longer exists, well women share our traditional roles(unless there's a risk of dying, then they're more than happy to let us do that).

...what? Is this an entirely serious statement?

We're a solid less than 300 years out (in the civilized world) of fully mature dudes taking 12-14 year olds as their wives being the (and I use this word to emphasize factual history) literal societal norm.

You going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that those barely pubescent girls were shaping and molding the guy-old-enough-to-be-her-father that was going to be fucking 7-9 kids into her?

And that's at the near pinnacle of western civilization. We can sit and reminisce about all the power the average woman had in the hundreds of years before that, though. Should take a solid 10 seconds or so.

Edit: I should edit this as barely pubescent girls do seem to shape the course of men's lives in Japan currently. But 2D waifus aren't turning dudes down (afaik) so...

[Thunder]

Honestly, I don't know. If I even thought I really knew, I'd be out there doing seminars.


It's hard, If I had to speculate though, I'd say the first thing that needs to be done is to remove the conflicting messages. As someone points out, men are expected to initiate but are actively discouraged from doing so(this is the "too troubling" aspect).

The second is probably to reform marriage, divorce, and custody in society. Marriage is a negative value proposition for most men and well figuring out how to encourage them and help them find a place may be lofty, we can at least stop discouraging them by making the family playing field more fair(this is the true negative value proposition).

Third is probably to increase fairness in society in general, if everyone had a relatively easy time making a living wage, I imagine these problems would be severely less apparent.

Beyond that, it's hard to see, in my view men are in a really difficult position in modern society.. Women have all the reproductive power and force in society, so the reality is that men have been bred to be what women want over the course of human evolution, if that's no longer the case, where does that leave us? We've been bred for a purpose that no longer exists, well women share our traditional roles(unless there's a risk of dying, then they're more than happy to let us do that).

I like you. I thought this would divulge into people's feelings again. I know I was about to get caught up in the cheeky responses too

I do think the answer is men need to find their purpose. But hell, I agree with you. It's tough out there to figure it all out for the average guy whose attention is being pulled by the "seminars/people/books/information that is geniunely helpful" and "coca cola, mcdonald's, flesh lights, romantic dramas, etcetc"

I think it's a problem of modern society focusing on vacation/comfort/leisure though and not so much feminism/women

[Darus Grey]

...what? Is this an entirely serious statement?

We're a solid less than 300 years out (in the civilized world) of fully mature dudes taking 12-14 year olds as their wives being the (and I use this word to emphasize factual history) literal societal norm.

You going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that those barely pubescent girls were shaping and molding the guy-old-enough-to-be-her-father that was going to be fucking 7-9 kids into her?

And that's at the near pinnacle of western civilization. We can sit and reminisce about all the power the average woman had in the hundreds of years before that, though. Should take a solid 10 seconds or so.

Entirely serious. Straight face. Your argument is more fallacious than you claim mine to be, because it does not represent the entirety of our evolution.

I like you. I thought this would divulge into people's feelings again. I know I was about to get caught up in the cheeky responses too

I do think the answer is men need to find their purpose. But hell, I agree with you. It's tough out there to figure it all out for the average guy whose attention is being pulled by the "seminars/people/books/information that is geniunely helpful" and "coca cola, mcdonald's, flesh lights, romantic dramas, etcetc"

I think it's a problem of modern society focusing on vacation/comfort/leisure though and not so much feminism/women

I like you too!

And I agree with your last statement immensely, it's less feminism and more that leisure has made it easier to exaggerate the problem.

[BerenTebogo]

Entirely serious. Straight face. Your argument is more fallacious than you claim mine to be, because it does not represent the entirety of our evolution.

Hah. How far back do you want this to go? Pre-society? Pre-hominid? Was it only the dude who brought down the biggest mammoth who got to fuck every female? Humans have never operated a la a pride of lions.

Much courtship back in the days of the hunter-gatherer?

How about at the dawn of agriculture? Is power the ability to be traded for supplies or land at the whim of your father?

Oh, how about pre-industrialization in a primarily theocratic western world, one in which women were forbidden from partaking in?

There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of species where the female has the sole say in who mates with her and who doesn't.

Unless you're a republican and are under the impression that rape can't get you pregnant unless you enjoy it, we're not one of them.