Men v Women : Sexodus

**Charismatic** · 2015-01-22 23:32

And yet there was no logical disagreement to any of the content in the post you just made.

**BerenTebogo** · 2015-01-22 23:32

Wasn't my post that you quoted.

It was an empty response to an equally empty statement by Uzor. Going full Mazmaz doesn't strengthen your position, it diminishes it.

**Charismatic** · 2015-01-22 23:35

So challenge the notion.
Put forth something counter to the notion that the standards by which men and women are measured for relationships are and always have been different.

**BerenTebogo** · 2015-01-22 23:37

As I believe you yourself have stated.

"What can be presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

There is not a single statistic, fact, source, or academic point in what you've posted. In your own words, I don't have to.

**Sepukku** · 2015-01-22 23:37

Spoiler: show

Thats some nice white knighting, but have you considered the way a lot of females act nowadays? They're out-graduating men from college but all the women I see are entry level associates; there's no ambitious, driven types which is what I want and I imagine most professional men want (I dont think the majority of guys are looking for a return to the 1950s servitude housewife). Most girls I date end up turning to sheep and latching on to my hobbies cause they don't have hobbies of their own. They don't have interests of their own. They follow me around to my hockey games. When I was a radio DJ in college they went to my radio shows and sat in the booth with me. They go to my concert shows with me and never ask to go see an artist they want to see. Its nice to have the company, honestly, but to be equally candid its disappointing they don't have their own stuff going on. I knew seldom few girls who have at least two hobbies/passions outside of work, going to bars, and the sedentary duo of watching TV / playing video games and more than half don't even have one. After a few months, it always ends up feeling like I need to entertain them cause they don't have interesting things going on on their own.

And TV, good lord is it putting bad ideas in chicks heads. I just streamed parks and rec episodes 3 & 4 of the new season on NBC and the commercials inbetween segments is for some primetime show resuming from the holiday TV break about a nurse who can't make up her mind which doctor she wants and keeps going back and forth between the two. The commercial is alternating 3 second clips of her making out with good guy clean shaven doctor and then making out with bad guy devilish smirking facial hair doctor. Thats not how relationships work. If a chick were to try pulling a back and forth on me, I don't think I'd be standing around just waiting for her to change her mind after a week with the other dude. And god help chicks who think its okay to monkey branch like my co-worker just pulled on her ex-bf to her newest bf last year. She openly dropped casually in a conversation to one of the other girls nearby us that she liked him even when she was still dating the previous guy. More recently, she admitted when she runs low on money she intentionally forgets several items from her food shopping and has her man pick them up for her on his way home from work so she can save $10-15 on her grocery bill. Its just absurd to hear this type of 'dont care about how I treat my men' attitude discussed so non-chalantly.

My last serious LT relationship my girlfriend never learned to drive. I drove her everywhere, including to work and back 4-5 times a week for 4-6 hour mall job shifts (on top of getting myself to my own 40+hr/week job that paid more and gave me more hours + benefits). She was constantly grumpy and always insulted when I insisted she needed to chip in gas money. There were many lines as we approached gas stations prefaced with things like "If you loved me...." and "You know other guys wouldn't".

Now both my last GF and this anecdotal cited co-worker are both in their early-mid 20's so I'm hoping its at least PARTLY a product of immaturity and some of it will go away as my peers get older, but by then they'll mostly all be wifed up and mommies, at which point I have 0 interest (at least with the mom thing, I could date a divorced non-parent chick). Do women add value to a man's life? Yes, even the crappy GFs add at least a bit. But do they add NET value to a man's life? Do they add value that is not negated by the chores and expenses they bring both intentionally and unintentionally to men? Thats a harder question to ask and I think less and less prove to add net value to less and less guys - rather than "most girls could make you happy" its becoming a "perfect fit" situation, where only if a chick REALLY meshes with the dude with where she is in her life and what she's into will she not encumber the guy she's dating. And even then half of people get divorced when they're 5-10-15 years down the road cause one or both parties don't appreciate what they have and what they built and get bored and leave.

**Charismatic** · 2015-01-22 23:43

Originally Posted by SathFenrir

As I believe you yourself have stated.

"What can be presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

There is not a single statistic, fact, source, or academic point in what you've posted. In your own words, I don't have to.

You want sources? Sure. You won't read 'em though.

"Human Fatherhood Is a Social Invention" is the title of Chapter IX of Mead's Male and Female: A Study of the Sexes in a Changing World (New York: William Morrow and Company, 1949).

Cited in Marilyn French, Beyond Power: On Women, Men and Morals (New York: Summit Books, 1985), p. 28.

Kinship and Marriage in Early Arabia (London: A. and C. Black, 1903), p. 213.

The Coming Matriarchy: How Women Will Gain the Balance of Power (New York: Seaview Books, 1981), p. 217.

The Coming Matriarchy, pp. 42ff. Cf. George Gilder, Sexual Suicide (New York: Quadrangle/ The New York Times Book Company, 1973), p. 67: "Women with high incomes and/or graduate degrees have the highest divorce rate--a rate far higher than successful men" [Citing Carter and Glick, Marriage and Divorce (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1970), pp. 313-20.]; Gilder, Men and Marriage (Gretna, LA: Pelican Publishing Company, 1986), pp. 205f. quotes Isabel V. Sawhill, "Economic Perspectives on the Family," Daedalus, Spring l977, p. ll9: "One of the most dramatic and consistent findings has been the greater prevalence of marriage and the lower probability of divorce where women's wages or labor- market participation are relatively low." Vassar economist Shirley Johnson computes that each additional $1,000 of a woman's earnings increases her likelihood of divorce by two percent. (Quoted by Caroline Bird, The Two-Paycheck Marriage (New York: Rawson, Wade, 1979), p. 13.) Summing up the evidence, Bird concludes: "The more money a woman earns, the less likely she is to be married. The relationship cannot be denied...."
"The 51 percent Minority Group," in Robin Morgan (ed.) Sisterhood Is Powerful (New York: Vintage Books, 1970), p. 39
R. G. Robertson, et al., "The Female Offender: A Canadian Study," Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, 32 (December, 1987), pp. 749-755; epitomized in The Family in America: New Research, April, 1988.

"Daughters in one-parent homes are much more likely to engage in premarital sex than are daughters in two-parent homes." (Susan Newcomer and J. Richard Udry, "Parental Marital Status Effects on Adolescent Sexual Behavior," Journal of Marriage and the Family, 49, No. 2 (May, l987), pp. 235-40; cited in The Family in America: New Research, August, 1987.)
"Daughters from female-headed households are much more likely than daughters from two-parent families to themselves become single parents and to rely on welfare for support as adults." (Sara S. McLanahan, "Family Structure and Dependency: Early Transitions to Female Household Headship," Demography 25 [Feb., 1988], l-l6; epitomized in The Family in America: New Research, May, l988.)

Got plenty more as well, actually.

**Sho** · 2015-01-22 23:45

"Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power."

Of course some people fail to see the context of why Wilde even said this. He doesn't mean literally everything, like your car or a video game, but the social interactions between we humans. The world we live in right now is highly sexualised, anyone with half a brain can see this. Sex is no longer taboo, something that is not talked about unless in the bedroom -- everyone talks about it, everyone discusses it from day to day in a major or minor fashion. If not this, we are constantly bombarded with sexualised TV shows, commercials, animeu, movies, music, etc. This connection must be made and understood well before tackling this idea of "sexodus".

Keeping in mind that we live in this reality where sex is literally everywhere, the inside of a typical male's psyche would be that of a more open (this is important), sexualised mindset. Sex is everywhere, so typical men are more apt to look for it everywhere and likewise discuss it openly with whoever will listen. Women are also subject to this as well, regardless of feminists say on any level. From a female's perspective, they are way past no longer being seen as property or lesser than men, into that of a society where they too are independent in all areas of society. They are, at least on paper and statistics, out performing men when it comes to education. This independence led women to take charge of their sexuality and then onto the eventual breakdown of family life. It shouldn't be hard to take in the fact that some men are abandoning "sex" for something lesser such as E-Relationships, Cybering, MMO Relationships, Video Games in general, etc -- some men feel that the bar is set too high by women, and due to this they don't even try. Some men don't even know how to act around women in today's society, so they don't even attempt to do so in reality, and would otherwise give it a go in a virtual reality instead. If they don't try, there's no opportunity to be embarrassed openly when they fail to get at a woman. Anonymity of the Internet in it's various forms are more preferred in this instance, even for men who aren't looking for a sexual relationship. There's actually a very large number of men who fall into this category. There are also men who are confident, but don't try in order to avoid offending women or seeming too machismo. They actively suppress their masculinity and instead turn into that type of Nice Guy who is more often than not submissive. Also easier to perform over the Internet in it's various forms.

You then have men who are alpha males trying to maintain their status in a society that is currently undergoing the Third-Wave Feminist movement. These types eventually fall off and succumb to the feminists in order to sympathize with the female condition. They then get left behind. It's a tight rope to walk as well, especially for men who genuinely love women for who they are, and seek to understand them. The irony in this is that the biggest proponents of Third Wave Feminism end up with Alpha Males who can stand up to them. Strong women typically don't want pussy ass men, they want a warrior who can not only stand up to them, but also respect them as a strong, independent woman as well. It's the next step up from dating a complete asshole for women -- instead of dating a douchebag who's confident, they want a man who's confident & respectful of them and their independence.
---

I know Chari, Zet and a few others would hate to read me say some shit like this after, but this is why I actually like the show Catfish. It's interesting to see men (and women) who hide behind the internet come to light in front of the people who they are fooling.

**Gokku** · 2015-01-22 23:45

Originally Posted by SathFenrir

As I believe you yourself have stated.

"What can be presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

There is not a single statistic, fact, source, or academic point in what you've posted. In your own words, I don't have to.

History stands with him, ala almost every civilization having a huge obsession with virginity in females yet men being able to freely sleep around. Or the idea of dowry etc. Chari's point is at the least a logical point.

**BerenTebogo** · 2015-01-22 23:45

Originally Posted by Sepukku

Thats some nice white knighting, but have you considered the way a lot of females act nowadays? They're out-graduating men from college but all the women I see are entry level associates; there's no ambitious, driven types which is what I want and I imagine most professional men want (I dont think the majority of guys are looking for a return to the 1950s servitude housewife). Most girls I date end up turning to sheep and latching on to my hobbies cause they don't have hobbies of their own. They don't have interests of their own. They follow me around to my hockey games. When I was a radio DJ in college they went to my shows and sat in the booth with me. They go to my shows with me and never ask to go see an artist they want to see. Its nice to have the company, honestly, but to be equally candid its disappointing they don't have their own stuff going on. I knew seldom few girls who have at least two hobbies/passions outside of work, going to bars, and the sedentary duo of watching TV / playing video games and more than half don't even have one. After a few months, it always ends up feeling like I need to entertain them cause they don't have interesting things going on on their own.

And TV, good lord is it putting bad ideas in chicks heads. I just streamed parks and rec episodes 3 & 4 of the new season on NBC and the commercials inbetween segments is for some primetime show resuming from the holiday TV break about a nurse who can't make up her mind which doctor she wants and keeps going back and forth between the two. The commercial is alternating 3 second clips of her making out with good guy clean shaven doctor and then making out with bad guy devilish smirking facial hair doctor. Thats not how relationships work. If a chick were to try pulling a back and forth on me, I don't think I'd be standing around just waiting for her to change her mind after a week with the other dude. And god help chicks who think its okay to monkey branch like my co-worker just pulled on her ex-bf to her newest bf last year. She openly dropped casually in a conversation to one of the other girls nearby us that she liked him even when she was still dating the previous guy. More recently, she admitted when she runs low on money she intentionally forgets several items from her food shopping and has her man pick them up for her on his way home from work so she can save $10-15 on her grocery bill. Its just absurd to hear this type of 'dont care about how I treat my men' attitude discussed so non-chalantly.

My last serious LT relationship my girlfriend never learned to drive. I drove her everywhere, including to work and back 4-5 times a week for 4-6 hour mall job shifts (on top of getting myself to my own 40+hr/week job that paid more and gave me more hours + benefits). She was constantly grumpy and always insulted when I insisted she needed to chip in gas money. There were many lines as we approached gas stations prefaced with things like "If you loved me...." and "You know other guys wouldn't".

Now both my last GF and this anecdotal cited co-worker are both in their early-mid 20's so I'm hoping its at least PARTLY a product of immaturity and some of it will go away as my peers get older, but by then they'll mostly all be wifed up and mommies, at which point I have 0 interest (at least with the mom thing, I could date a divorced non-parent chick). Do women add value to a man's life? Yes, even the crappy GFs add at least a bit. But do they add NET value to a man's life? Do they add value that is not negated by the chores and expenses they bring both intentionally and unintentionally to men? Thats a harder question to ask and I think less and less prove to add net value to less and less guys - rather than "most girls could make you happy" its becoming a "perfect fit" situation, where only if a chick REALLY meshes with the dude with where she is in her life and what she's into will she not encumber the guy she's dating. And even then half of people get divorced when they're 5-10-15 years down the road cause one or both parties don't appreciate what they have and what they built and get bored and leave.

Genuine question because I'm curious.

You don't want pacified girls who don't have personalities of their own, can't support themselves, and basically were bred to be a companion.

Could you be with a woman who had her own job, supported herself, held an higher position in either industry or academia (i.e. was contributing more to society than ~70% of men or women) and had her own hobbies / friends that weren't yours?

It's a genuine question because personally, my ex-wife and I got married too young, and she was basically what you describe above. I realized I wanted more of the second, but coming out of that marriage I wasn't actually ready for that for a few years and found women like that actually making me insecure.

Once I got over myself I found my current LT girlfriend who is a graduate student in a STEM field working on her own research, presenting at conferences, etc. Own hobbies, doesn't take shit from me, and I absolutely love it. It's an adult relationship. What you describe above and my first marriage are just child relationships despite being older.

**BerenTebogo** · 2015-01-22 23:47

Originally Posted by Charismatic

You want sources? Sure. You won't read 'em though.

"Human Fatherhood Is a Social Invention" is the title of Chapter IX of Mead's Male and Female: A Study of the Sexes in a Changing World (New York: William Morrow and Company, 1949).

Cited in Marilyn French, Beyond Power: On Women, Men and Morals (New York: Summit Books, 1985), p. 28.

Kinship and Marriage in Early Arabia (London: A. and C. Black, 1903), p. 213.

The Coming Matriarchy: How Women Will Gain the Balance of Power (New York: Seaview Books, 1981), p. 217.

The Coming Matriarchy, pp. 42ff. Cf. George Gilder, Sexual Suicide (New York: Quadrangle/ The New York Times Book Company, 1973), p. 67: "Women with high incomes and/or graduate degrees have the highest divorce rate--a rate far higher than successful men" [Citing Carter and Glick, Marriage and Divorce (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1970), pp. 313-20.]; Gilder, Men and Marriage (Gretna, LA: Pelican Publishing Company, 1986), pp. 205f. quotes Isabel V. Sawhill, "Economic Perspectives on the Family," Daedalus, Spring l977, p. ll9: "One of the most dramatic and consistent findings has been the greater prevalence of marriage and the lower probability of divorce where women's wages or labor- market participation are relatively low." Vassar economist Shirley Johnson computes that each additional $1,000 of a woman's earnings increases her likelihood of divorce by two percent. (Quoted by Caroline Bird, The Two-Paycheck Marriage (New York: Rawson, Wade, 1979), p. 13.) Summing up the evidence, Bird concludes: "The more money a woman earns, the less likely she is to be married. The relationship cannot be denied...."
"The 51 percent Minority Group," in Robin Morgan (ed.) Sisterhood Is Powerful (New York: Vintage Books, 1970), p. 39
R. G. Robertson, et al., "The Female Offender: A Canadian Study," Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, 32 (December, 1987), pp. 749-755; epitomized in The Family in America: New Research, April, 1988.

"Daughters in one-parent homes are much more likely to engage in premarital sex than are daughters in two-parent homes." (Susan Newcomer and J. Richard Udry, "Parental Marital Status Effects on Adolescent Sexual Behavior," Journal of Marriage and the Family, 49, No. 2 (May, l987), pp. 235-40; cited in The Family in America: New Research, August, 1987.)
"Daughters from female-headed households are much more likely than daughters from two-parent families to themselves become single parents and to rely on welfare for support as adults." (Sara S. McLanahan, "Family Structure and Dependency: Early Transitions to Female Household Headship," Demography 25 [Feb., 1988], l-l6; epitomized in The Family in America: New Research, May, l988.)

Got plenty more as well, actually.

I don't need to read them. This is fine.

This is a proper response. Your bullshit conspiracy theory post to Uzor was a shit post and you know it. Should've led with this.

Edit: I never actually disagreed with your point that there was a disparity. It was just SUCH a bad post.

**BerenTebogo** · 2015-01-22 23:48

Originally Posted by Gokku

History stands with him, ala almost every civilization having a huge obsession with virginity in females yet men being able to freely sleep around. Or the idea of dowry etc. Chari's point is at the least a logical point.

To be fair, pre-Christianity many more civilizations "Goddess" based.

Basically until we figured out that sex causes babies, it was different. Early civilization humans were humping, and then 9 months later a baby came out.

It actually took quite a while for that link to be established.

**shepardG** · 2015-01-22 23:55

Originally Posted by SathFenrir

To be fair, pre-Christianity many more civilizations "Goddess" based.

Basically until we figured out that sex causes babies, it was different. Early civilization humans were humping, and then 9 months later a baby came out.

It actually took quite a while for that link to be established.

I will still debate this.

**Sepukku** · 2015-01-22 23:55

Originally Posted by SathFenrir

Genuine question because I'm curious.

You don't want pacified girls who don't have personalities of their own, can't support themselves, and basically were bred to be a companion.

Could you be with a woman who had her own job, supported herself, held an higher position in either industry or academia (i.e. was contributing more to society than ~70% of men or women) and had her own hobbies / friends that weren't yours?

It's a genuine question because personally, my ex-wife and I got married too young, and she was basically what you describe above. I realized I wanted more of the second, but coming out of that marriage I wasn't actually ready for that for a few years and found women like that actually making me insecure.

Once I got over myself I found my current LT girlfriend who is a graduate student in a STEM field working on her own research, presenting at conferences, etc. Own hobbies, doesn't take shit from me, and I absolutely love it. It's an adult relationship. What you describe above and my first marriage are just child relationships despite being older.

Its all I aim for now when deciding to keep following-up or not with a girl I've started to talk to, is does she seem bright/driven/mature for whatever her age is? It doesn't intimidate me, but it certainly does whittle down the number of girls who can hold my interest beyond 3-4 tipsy house parties / bar nights and even make me enjoy a dynamic, sober dinner conversation. Usually it means I've talked to and dated longer girls a couple years older than me, but nothing has stuck since the last LTR for varying reasons.

**BerenTebogo** · 2015-01-22 23:58

Originally Posted by Sepukku

Its all I aim for now when deciding to keep following-up or not with a girl I've started to talk to, is does she seem bright/driven/mature for whatever her age is? It doesn't intimidate me, but it certainly does whittle down the number of girls who can hold my interest beyond 3-4 tipsy house parties / bar nights and even make me enjoy a dynamic, sober dinner conversation. Usually it means I've talked to and dated longer girls a couple years older than me, but nothing has stuck since the last LTR for varying reasons.

Well good luck to you then. Hope it works out. I haven't found much more rewarding than engaging in a good intellectual debate about whatever and then having angry sex after.

FWIW: Rarely will you find the type of girl you're after at a house party. That's just more JB.

**BerenTebogo** · 2015-01-22 23:59

Originally Posted by shepardG

I will still debate this.

I'll debate your mom.

**Charismatic** · 2015-01-23 00:04

Originally Posted by SathFenrir

FWIW: Rarely will you find the type of girl you're after at a house party. That's just more JB.

Therein lies the problem.
This is part of the issue at hand btw.

Rarely, ever, will you find the kind of person you're looking for (who also wants you) unless you want the LCD and then you've got to put in all the effort to maintain the relationship and make sure your partner doesn't get bored. Just another reason people are checking out.

Life is too easy now and people can just go "Eh, fuck it." with little consequence.

The most common response that Japanese youths give when asked about why they don't peruse relationships is simply that its 'too troublesome'.

**Sho** · 2015-01-23 00:12

Originally Posted by SathFenrir

Could you be with a woman who had her own job, supported herself, held an higher position in either industry or academia (i.e. was contributing more to society than ~70% of men or women) and had her own hobbies / friends that weren't yours?

....

Once I got over myself I found my current LT girlfriend who is a graduate student in a STEM field working on her own research, presenting at conferences, etc. Own hobbies, doesn't take shit from me, and I absolutely love it. It's an adult relationship. What you describe above and my first marriage are just child relationships despite being older.

This is exactly what I'm talking about above. It's essentially what feminists want immediately after getting the respect they fight for and deserve. Alpha Male types also typically stray from easy women who are typically uneducated, because more often than not they are also constantly embroiled in childish, petty drama and intrigue which they may or may not bring on themselves.

BTW, just using the example of the typical heterosexual relationship between a male and a female. Of course the feminist movement also moves into the LGBT and that should be viewed and respected as well.

**BerenTebogo** · 2015-01-23 00:14

Originally Posted by Charismatic

Therein lies the problem.
This is part of the issue at hand btw.

Rarely, ever, will you find the kind of person you're looking for (who also wants you) unless you want the LCD and then you've got to put in all the effort to maintain the relationship and make sure your partner doesn't get bored. Just another reason people are checking out.

Life is too easy now and people can just go "Eh, fuck it." with little consequence.

The most common response that Japanese youths give when asked about why they don't peruse relationships is simply that its 'too troublesome'.

Well women in Japan, afaik, are basically stuck back in the early 1900s. The NEETs and the Hikis have their own problems.

A college bar or coffeehouse on campus. Keep it light "Hey what you reading? Oh Ayn Rand huh? Well enjoy puberty when it hits!" Walk away.

While annoying and sometimes you have to subject yourself to scrummy hipsters, it's not a bad place to meet people who may not be too far out your field.

At the gym I get a lot of loooooong looks from every girl with a piece of ink in there. Isnt what I'm going for, but opportunity presents.

I dare say if people left some of the acidity for the internet and sorta just relaxed in social situations things might turn up some interesting prospects.

**Charismatic** · 2015-01-23 00:16

You only speak on sparking a relationship.
We've all been there, done that and know it takes a lot more than that to keep it going longer than a couple of years.

Or I assume we know that. I know that.

Maintaining a relationship is work that it would appear that a large number of people are simply not interested in doing.

**Sho** · 2015-01-23 00:24

Originally Posted by Charismatic

The most common response that Japanese youths give when asked about why they don't peruse relationships is simply that its 'too troublesome'.

I think the issue with the Japanese is that they absorb too much of Western culture and then apply it to their own societal life. They see these images of strong women, and assume that all women are like this, their social circles included. This presents a problem when you tie in the idea of a Japanese workplace society. Men and women work exceptionally long hours in Japan, and have time for little else. So instead of seeking relationships, they would rather live life and enjoying friends and entertainment with what free time they do have. They literally call them "parasite singles" in Japan.

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