Men v Women : Sexodus

[Charismatic]

I think the issue with the Japanese is that they absorb too much of Western culture and then apply it to their own societal life. They see these images of strong women, and assume that all women are like this, their social circles included. This presents a problem when you tie in the idea of a Japanese workplace society. Men and women work exceptionally long hours in Japan, and have time for little else. So instead of seeking relationships, they would rather live life and enjoying friends and entertainment with what free time they do have. They literally call them "parasite singles" in Japan.

Yep. And while its not exactly the same in the west... I think we're only a generation or two away from seeing the same patterns (as they are already beginning to emerge).

[BerenTebogo]

You only speak on sparking a relationship.
We've all been there, done that and know it takes a lot more than that to keep it going longer than a couple of years.

Or I assume we know that. I know that.

Maintaining a relationship is work that it would appear that a large number of people are simply not interested in doing.

Dunno, I used to have a standard opener. Once at my apartment I would put on mythbusters and grab us drinks. If they changed it without asking > gone. If they asked to change it -> no second date unless I'm still limping the next morning. If they're happy just chilling with something in background while we talk? A+. Next level.

Can set up stuff like this for yourself to minimize the work invested in feeling women out. Do they touch your car stereo without asking? NOPE FUCK OFF. Etc etc. By the time you ever are even considering getting it wet you should have a solid feel for who this person is as a human. What they do, what they love doing, etc.

I've never found it takes more than average to keep a relationship going longterm if the start is solid. That's just me though.

[Charismatic]

That's just me though.

Yep. Given the high and rising divorce rates I'd say it is.
Glad for you though, its rough for a lot of people out there.

[BerenTebogo]

I now require a reality TV show where a bunch of hiki betas fed massive amounts of testosterone and put on an island with 18 beautiful girls ala bachelor or some shit.

Would eat the shit out of some potato chips to whatever happens there.

[Ghost_Wheel22]

I think I went herbivore shortly after high school as I viewed woman as increasingly toxic. Did some years of ONS and even that became rather tedious and unsatisfying and now as I'm almost 30 I'm fully entrenched with a "fuck it" view. I just view my vidya games, gunsmithing, and outdoorsy hobbies more rewarding for my time and money. Not to say I shun women completely but I have zero interest in progressing relationships past "good friends" and almost rely on them to initiate sexual interest.

[Thunder]

This might be slightly tangential, but I think it ties in close enough to be worth saying.

What you're talking about is a core effect of Capitalism; there is no way to maintain your current relative value unless you are constantly increasing your value. If the value of the entire community (economy) increases, and you stay the same, you are actually decreasing in relative value even though you're no different than you were before. The way that applies to the conversation at hand is the fact that we determine values of people socially, and for the entirety of human history we've expected more and more out of people just for them to get the same appreciation/value. A lot of these people that are "writing off women" (although I'm sure it applies equally to women writing off men) may just be fed up with the notion of having to work so incredibly hard just for someone to appreciate them as a person. At the end of the day, the love of a significant other is not a good enough return on investment for the ever-increasing amount of effort required to obtain said love.

Why should a woman appreciate a person if they're lazy, uninteresting, and basically a loser relative to the other guy who's always been increasing his value? It is capitalism - it's competition, it always has been, that's what life on this planet is!

Why is "the ever-increasing amount of effort required to obtain said love" such a bad thing? This is what I think the problem is - people just want things given to them and it causes confusion/frustration when life just doesn't reward you with what you THINK you ought to just "deserve". If a guy doesn't want to work on themselves constantly then fine, they can swear off women - that's nature deciding it doesn't want that uncompetitive loser's genes reproducing lol

A lot of these people that are "writing off women" (although I'm sure it applies equally to women writing off men)

I'd be willing to bet my life that it applies roughly equally. Except men complaining are age ~20 and women "complaining" are age ~30 (but a woman by then will just find some boring/loser guy to be the provider and divorce him in x years). We have different roles in relationships and different sets of problems at different times.

Women have it "easy" when they're young. Sex for them is like sliding down a hill on a bobsled lol. Getting out on the other end of those "glory years" a better person is TOUGH. The life of a pretty girl in big cities is being CONSTANTLY bombarded by "yes men" who will tell them anything to sleep with them, give them drugs, and then all their friends point and call them sluts when they succumb to it (usually). They don't actually have a chance, longterm, with the guys that fuck them regularly. They'll be way too broken and unpleasant in a couple of years

Thats some nice white knighting, but have you considered the way a lot of females act nowadays? They're out-graduating men from college but all the women I see are entry level associates; there's no ambitious, driven types which is what I want and I imagine most professional men want (I dont think the majority of guys are looking for a return to the 1950s servitude housewife). Most girls I date end up turning to sheep and latching on to my hobbies cause they don't have hobbies of their own. They don't have interests of their own. They follow me around to my hockey games. When I was a radio DJ in college they went to my radio shows and sat in the booth with me. They go to my concert shows with me and never ask to go see an artist they want to see. Its nice to have the company, honestly, but to be equally candid its disappointing they don't have their own stuff going on. I knew seldom few girls who have at least two hobbies/passions outside of work, going to bars, and the sedentary duo of watching TV / playing video games and more than half don't even have one. After a few months, it always ends up feeling like I need to entertain them cause they don't have interesting things going on on their own.

And TV, good lord is it putting bad ideas in chicks heads. I just streamed parks and rec episodes 3 & 4 of the new season on NBC and the commercials inbetween segments is for some primetime show resuming from the holiday TV break about a nurse who can't make up her mind which doctor she wants and keeps going back and forth between the two. The commercial is alternating 3 second clips of her making out with good guy clean shaven doctor and then making out with bad guy devilish smirking facial hair doctor. Thats not how relationships work. If a chick were to try pulling a back and forth on me, I don't think I'd be standing around just waiting for her to change her mind after a week with the other dude. And god help chicks who think its okay to monkey branch like my co-worker just pulled on her ex-bf to her newest bf last year. She openly dropped casually in a conversation to one of the other girls nearby us that she liked him even when she was still dating the previous guy. More recently, she admitted when she runs low on money she intentionally forgets several items from her food shopping and has her man pick them up for her on his way home from work so she can save $10-15 on her grocery bill. Its just absurd to hear this type of 'dont care about how I treat my men' attitude discussed so non-chalantly.

My last serious LT relationship my girlfriend never learned to drive. I drove her everywhere, including to work and back 4-5 times a week for 4-6 hour mall job shifts (on top of getting myself to my own 40+hr/week job that paid more and gave me more hours + benefits). She was constantly grumpy and always insulted when I insisted she needed to chip in gas money. There were many lines as we approached gas stations prefaced with things like "If you loved me...." and "You know other guys wouldn't".

Now both my last GF and this anecdotal cited co-worker are both in their early-mid 20's so I'm hoping its at least PARTLY a product of immaturity and some of it will go away as my peers get older, but by then they'll mostly all be wifed up and mommies, at which point I have 0 interest (at least with the mom thing, I could date a divorced non-parent chick). Do women add value to a man's life? Yes, even the crappy GFs add at least a bit. But do they add NET value to a man's life? Do they add value that is not negated by the chores and expenses they bring both intentionally and unintentionally to men? Thats a harder question to ask and I think less and less prove to add net value to less and less guys - rather than "most girls could make you happy" its becoming a "perfect fit" situation, where only if a chick REALLY meshes with the dude with where she is in her life and what she's into will she not encumber the guy she's dating. And even then half of people get divorced when they're 5-10-15 years down the road cause one or both parties don't appreciate what they have and what they built and get bored and leave.

White knighting? Me? You don't get me at all

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying: most women are vapid, boring, brats, princess-complex, whatever else you want to say. But I also think most men are boring losers. Put em together, and you've got some shit relationships/lives

Btw, why, if the girls didn't add net value to your life, did you not leave them or just do sex and not hang out so much or just be fuck buddies? Something where you actually had a net benefit from each particular girl in your life?

I think you'd benefit from some stricter personal boundaries. Don't take shit so readily from a girl if she's such a drain on you. I don't mean to be a psychologist here, but if you also slept around more it'd be easier to cut off ties with shit women since you'd be coming from abundance and the relative value of women will go down (instead of wayyy up if you're going girlfriend to girlfriend)

[BaneTheBrawler]

This is not a relationship advice thread. Nor it is a "women are bad" thread. Clean this shit up or I'll lock it.

[Mertron]

seriously? lol

[Gredival]

As I said earlier in the thread

Insofar as there is a discussion about how the sexual revolution and greater women's rights have and continue to change the dynamic of marriage, dating, and/or monogamy by altering what women seek in a relationship (and how men are responding to that) that's all valid discussion.

But we need quite a bit more before we can have conclusory allegations about one sex versus the other.

Basically observation of facts is always valid (i.e. the subject at hand is a result of greater sexual liberation); however, be careful about making any value judgments ("Women are terrible" as one poster already tried to put it) based on mere fact. You need to justify the value judgment through an argument.

People's personal bad experiences in relationships are also not sufficient to make that conclusion. Examples are always fair insofar as they are illustrative of a point, but everyone should be well aware of the folly of anecdotal evidence.

[Pirian]

To the guys who are frustrated with the state of women: do you deserve a quality girl? Like, what do you do that makes you so great? How humble of a person are you to even be able to answer that question truthfully?

We aren't cars that lose value as soon as we leave the lot. Our value should be going up as time goes by - the people's whose value isn't going up as time goes by will be the ones complaining about how unfair life is (girls do it too!)

The OP's articles + some posts here remind me of the 50 yr old guy who get laid off of his manual labor job and then finds himself on a michael moore documentary saying, "I don't have anything to do now.. it's so unfair" well no shit man, you just spent 3 decades not increasing your value. All that guy did was get older; HE is like a car. You don't invest in shit that just rusts/rots/depreciates.

I don't think this is so much about sexuality/feminism as it is about people getting more and more "zombified" by marketers/media. First rule of hollywood is "give the people what they want" and what they want are a list of celebrities you didn't know had surgery, new TV shows, new movies, salt, sugar, fat, etcetc. Less and less people are out there making new friends, getting better at being a leader, being a person people WANT to be around, finding/making a job that they absolutely love, hunting down mentors, and/or picking up good books to read

“How to find a good spouse?
-the best single way is to deserve a good spouse.”

“To get what you want, you have to deserve what you want. The world is not yet a crazy enough place to reward a whole bunch of
undeserving people.”

― Charlie Munger, who knew this old billionaire knew the way into a woman

Are you serious? Life isn't about what you deserve or don't deserve, so why does this matter even in the slightest? Man my head is spinning so hard trying to go from end to end of your comments. At the risk of an ad hominem, you seem to be very disconnected from reality in your pontification. I wouldn't listen to a billionaire on who is deserving, and of what, in the world. Just a quick tidbit on that: http://www.pnas.org/content/109/11/4086.full

Seven studies using experimental and naturalistic methods reveal that upper-class individuals behave more unethically than lower-class individuals. In studies 1 and 2, upper-class individuals were more likely to break the law while driving, relative to lower-class individuals. In follow-up laboratory studies, upper-class individuals were more likely to exhibit unethical decision-making tendencies (study 3), take valued goods from others (study 4), lie in a negotiation (study 5), cheat to increase their chances of winning a prize (study 6), and endorse unethical behavior at work (study 7) than were lower-class individuals. Mediator and moderator data demonstrated that upper-class individuals’ unethical tendencies are accounted for, in part, by their more favorable attitudes toward greed.

The abstract doesn't cover this, but I feel it is worth noting that it is not necessarily that the individual is actually wealthy that brings on this display of behavior, because if an individual perceives themselves to be wealthy then it will also lead to the same behavioral outcomes. Furthermore, the majority of the time, these individuals (whether actually wealthy or just perceiving wealth) take absolutely no happenstance in their position regardless of how they achieved it, and perceive themselves as deserving of their place.

Sorry, this was kind of a tangent, but I think it's OK because it was directly in response to comments made towards the topic.

[Abandon]

oye vey, this thread

[Xantavia]

I think I went herbivore shortly after high school as I viewed woman as increasingly toxic. Did some years of ONS and even that became rather tedious and unsatisfying and now as I'm almost 30 I'm fully entrenched with a "fuck it" view. I just view my vidya games, gunsmithing, and outdoorsy hobbies more rewarding for my time and money. Not to say I shun women completely but I have zero interest in progressing relationships past "good friends" and almost rely on them to initiate sexual interest.

I can agree with this. At a young age, you get an idolized view of women in your head, putting the pussy on a pedestal. As you get older, you get stuck in the friend zone while watching them date the aggressive men. You aren't sowing your oats, but the women you have an interest in are. When the women decide to settle down later in life, the men have become cynical and jaded. As a result, some of them will refuse to have anything to do with women, telling themselves that if the girls didn't want them back then, why should they settle for being the second choice now.

[chazzyphizzle]

lol

[Cream Soda]

telling themselves that if the girls didn't want them back then, why should they settle for being the second choice now.

As someone who has 0 luck w/ women and who's last date was now almost 6 years ago (which was a pity date lol); that video/articles scream victim card to me. Really, blaming an entire gender? I just keep it on the individual level. [Insert person here] isn't interested. Move on, try again w/ someone else.

[thetruepandagod]

As someone who has 0 luck w/ women and who's last date was now almost 6 years ago (which was a pity date lol); that video/articles scream victim card to me. Really, blaming an entire gender? I just keep it on the individual level. [Insert person here] isn't interested. Move on, try again w/ someone else.

Spoiler: show

not sarcasm gif dont infract me you dastardly bastardies

[Lyall]

Dunno, I used to have a standard opener. Once at my apartment I would put on mythbusters and grab us drinks. If they changed it without asking > gone. If they asked to change it -> no second date unless I'm still limping the next morning. If they're happy just chilling with something in background while we talk? A+. Next level.

Can set up stuff like this for yourself to minimize the work invested in feeling women out. Do they touch your car stereo without asking? NOPE FUCK OFF. Etc etc. By the time you ever are even considering getting it wet you should have a solid feel for who this person is as a human. What they do, what they love doing, etc.

I've never found it takes more than average to keep a relationship going longterm if the start is solid. That's just me though.

If someone turns off Mythbusters, do you still go through with the rest of the evening? If they touch your car stereo, do you drop them off at their place and go do something else? Probably not, you probably go through the motions and just write the night off as a loss.

What happens when you do that for weeks in a row? Months? Years? What happens when every time you go out with someone, you just wind up thinking "Man, I could have been doing that other thing I want to do instead?" Again, social ability isn't necessarily what's on discussion here, it's people going "Hm, Friday night. I could finish up building that model or I could go attempt to meet a stranger. Fuck it, Mythbusters is on." It's known quantity versus unknown quantity. I will derive X units of enjoyment if I stay in and play through my Steam Backlog. I will derive between potentially-negative-Y to Z amounts if I go meet up with a stranger." It's not surprising people will take the guaranteed deal.

[Thunder]

Are you serious? Life isn't about what you deserve or don't deserve, so why does this matter even in the slightest? Man my head is spinning so hard trying to go from end to end of your comments. At the risk of an ad hominem, you seem to be very disconnected from reality in your pontification. I wouldn't listen to a billionaire on who is deserving, and of what, in the world. Just a quick tidbit on that: http://www.pnas.org/content/109/11/4086.full



The abstract doesn't cover this, but I feel it is worth noting that it is not necessarily that the individual is actually wealthy that brings on this display of behavior, because if an individual perceives themselves to be wealthy then it will also lead to the same behavioral outcomes. Furthermore, the majority of the time, these individuals (whether actually wealthy or just perceiving wealth) take absolutely no happenstance in their position regardless of how they achieved it, and perceive themselves as deserving of their place.

Sorry, this was kind of a tangent, but I think it's OK because it was directly in response to comments made towards the topic.

No worries, I wont get offended if you do go ad hominem lol. Cool study, I'll read the entire thing later today.

I understand how you got to the conclusion I meant wealth when I quoted a billionaire.. but I don't mean wealth at all.

Just value

If a guy is not fun, confident, makes the girl feel emotionally safe, etc etc, then why would she have sex with him, let alone want a relationship with him?

My point's always been that more and more often guys are disconnecting themselves from reality and are unable to connect to another human being as well as even the stereotypical-dumbass-jock. "Coincidentally" that guy gets laid more than the arm-chair@life guys who swear women off

Life isn't about what you deserve or don't deserve, so why does this matter even in the slightest?

Now that we're off money/wealth... are YOU serious? In my world the team that wins the basketball game practiced harder/smarter than the other team. In your world, does a guy selected at random win mr. olympia, or the guy who more readily deserves it? Does the guy with the masters degree get the job or the guy who dropped out of high school? A healthy/fun sex life is just like a good body or big bank account - deserve it. Do things that make you deserve it.

Life is ONLY about what you earn/deserve. I try pretty hard to listen to the other side of things, but "life isn't about what you deserve".. is crazy, no?

At this point you and I can only discuss whether the men swearing off women are actually great guys and society is crumbling (ala the mice experiments from 1960 from earlier on in the thread) or more and more people are living sedentary lifestyles

[Kuya]

I honestly don't see what the problem is if someone feels they are satisfied with not pursuing relationships. If some group of men feel that getting into dates is too much work and instead choose to pursue other hobbies, then that is just fine. I don't expect everyone is gonna want to fuck and form a family.

[Sho]

I honestly don't see what the problem is if someone feels they are satisfied with not pursuing relationships. If some group of men feel that getting into dates is too much work and instead choose to pursue other hobbies, then that is just fine. I don't expect everyone is gonna want to fuck and form a family.

IMO this is also fine as well. People just seek to understand why others don't want to pursue relationships and form families. Thankfully the majority of us live in countries where our governments don't care if we date and become families or if we become slobs or what have you. A place like Japan however has an on going concern because it's negatively affecting their birth rates.

[Kuya]

I'm sure scientists will be investigating the reasons, but the best the government can do right now is what it is already doing by providing incentives to form families and raise children. And it should be noted that the Japanese government's concern has less to do with the population shrinking and more to do with an aging workforce.