Transgender Philosophy (Questions, Ideology)

[Aksannyi]

Policing what people feel inside is a very scary, and in my mind, dangerous notion.

If what a person feels for their entire life never causes another human pain or suffering in any way, they should be regarded as a model citizen. A good member of the human race. Every single one of us has thoughts and ideals inside of us that could be considered dangerous, unlawful, or intolerant.

Policing thought that is never externalized, never causes anyone pain or even discomfort, is frankly terrifying. If someone is truly intolerant, and they internalize it to the point that nobody ever experiences it to any degree, is that a problem?

It certainly cannot be called a problem for society. No member of society has experienced any measure of discomfort that can be quantified in any way. Is it a problem for the individuals that surround that person? Again, by virtue of no quantifiable effects, no. A problem for the person themselves? Who knows. But I posit that it is neither your place nor mine to be literal thought police.

You're right, and we can't do that, it's simply impossible. That said, I still think that people can harbor internalized hatred toward a group of people and while it may never manifest, if it does, it is highly problematic. But of course we cannot police what people think - I'm merely pointing out that just because you outwardly tolerate someone, that doesn't mean that you won't inwardly harbor hatred toward them. I just want people to recognize that, look internally, and see if that's the case. That's where change has to happen first.

That's really the only reason I'm pointing it out, and also because there are, as I've said, unconscious actions that people do, like tensing up around a certain person or type of person. It's not inherently harmful, but people pick up on that, it breeds distrust. It's not like going out and stabbing a bunch of trans people, but it's a subtle thing - subconsciously avoiding "that Aaron guy who kind of looks like a chick but swears up and down he's a guy." Small things that seem innocuous but, when hundreds of people do them daily, they lead to that person feeling marginalized, abnormal, broken, etc. I'm not saying that's ever going to change, but in order for trans people to be accepted, people do need to get over their internal biases, even if we don't want to tap into people's brains and try to rewire them or anything of the sort.

[Gredival]

While this logically makes sense, and I can't speak for anyone who is trans, I'm not sure that's what they would want, to always have some differentiation. Trans women want to pass as women. Trans men want to pass as men. I don't think they want to always be separate.

To some extent, they will always be separated by fine degrees of separation. Sub-classification of humans by gender, race, ethnicity, etc. isn't a new phenomena. The point is that, as much as possible, this separation should be minimized and should never impact substantive rights.

Insofar as there is a difference, no matter how minor (that were "male-at-birth") it will be useful at some point to find a way to express this difference. The problem we've already encountered is that a trans individual's potential pool of partners can be constrained by their being trans. That is a problem a non trans woman will not have. And it's not something we can ever fix completely in society without somehow forcing people to be attracted to people they aren't.

[Aksannyi]

Dead barring aks posting most likely. Wish niro would jump in, i actually like her.

I feel like this is such a burden, especially considering I'm not trans, I'm just an ally. I can't have all of the answers. But this is an important issue to me so I will do my best to inform and educate.

[Aksannyi]

To some extent, they will always be separated by fine degrees of separation. Sub-classification of humans by gender, race, ethnicity, etc. isn't a new phenomena. The point is that, as much as possible, this separation should be minimized and should never impact substantive rights.

Insofar as there is a difference, no matter how minor (that were "male-at-birth") it will be useful at some point to find a way to express this difference. The problem we've already encountered is that a trans individual's potential pool of partners can be constrained by their being trans. That is a problem a non trans woman will not have. And it's not something we can ever fix completely in society without somehow forcing people to be attracted to people they aren't.

Fair enough - I just know what it feels like to be the "other," so I just think that's not going to be amenable.

[Guitarman]

Dead barring aks posting most likely. Wish niro would jump in, i actually like her.

I was thinking about it earlier, and it's unfortunate things turn out the way they do more often than not around here. Hey kind of went into a Celeste-lite mode of playing the victim while labeling everyone around him (her? I honestly don't remember if hey was mtf or ftm) a bigot, close minded, or against the LBGT community. All that does is create more ill will. Niro was and is so well-liked because of how she handled questions. Yeah there's a copious amount of trolling on BG, anyone that's been around more than a week can see that, but there are plenty of us trying to have a real conversation about it. Attitude goes a long way toward swaying people to your way of thinking.

[Jaybar]

So where do chromosomes play out in all this?

inb4 downs.

[thetruepandagod]

Well you see there are X's and Y's and they do things.

[Aksannyi]

I was thinking about it earlier, and it's unfortunate things turn out the way they do more often than not around here. Hey kind of went into a Celeste-lite mode of playing the victim while labeling everyone around him (her? I honestly don't remember if hey was mtf or ftm) a bigot, close minded, or against the LBGT community. All that does is create more ill will. Niro was and is so well-liked because of how she handled questions. Yeah there's a copious amount of trolling on BG, anyone that's been around more than a week can see that, but there are plenty of us trying to have a real conversation about it. Attitude goes a long way toward swaying people to your way of thinking.

She's mtf. So female pronouns.

[BerenTebogo]

Most of the helpful discussion was incurring in spite of hey, not because of her.

A little less tumblr and a little more citation of sources (no, blogs don't count) around here might be helpful to those who don't quantify the world in terms of feels.

Hammering out the fine details of what is and isn't socially acceptable without someone yelling "transphobe!!" At you every 5 minutes may yield better results, honestly.

And I do acknowledge the many other trans people on the forum who, for whatever reason, wish to remain anonymous. I hope you have been able to see the overall scale of productive education that has happened here so far.

[thetruepandagod]

Most of the helpful discussion was incurring in spite of hey, not because of her.

For real, I had better convo's with gred here and kuya in spam than i ever would have with hey.

[BerenTebogo]

Gred, and even Sir Shitlord himself, have done a great job summarizing things and keeping the information easy to digest for new people coming into the thread.

I've always looked at that as much more of a contribution to educating newcomers than them stepping into pronoun and suffix wars for the 17th time.

[Tarage]

I... kinda wanna post something about what you are saying Sath, but it admittedly has nothing to do with this topic at all. I think I may just PM it to you instead.

[Koul]

In regards to there being three sexes. (male, female and trans) don't we already kind of have that? Whenever I see Chaz Bono or Janet Mock or some other trans actor/tress I always see them referred to as a transwoman or a transman, never a woman or man.

The trans people I see on grindr and scruff refer to themselves as transmen or transwomen as well. If referring to them as such is offensive or whatever why are they not just called men/women. This is where I get confused sometimes because I would read about some people getting pissed if they were called a transman. So, then I tried to get into the habit of just calling them a man.

The discussion that having trans as a third sex as offensive because it differentiates them seems ludicrous to me. But I personally believe that we need to be proud and acknowledge our differences to prosper. Didn't Native Americans have a 3rd sex name or something? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender is what I'm getting at.

[Andalusian girls]

the issue comes from many of these individuals not seeing themselves as a third gender, as some kind of other, instead firmly believing that they are one of the two traditional genders and only an awry chromosome led them to their current predicament

[Xno Kappa]

The discussion that having trans as a third sex as offensive because it differentiates them seems ludicrous to me. But I personally believe that we need to be proud and acknowledge our differences to prosper. Didn't Native Americans have a 3rd sex name or something? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender is what I'm getting at.

Wow, had no idea India updated their passport forms to include a third gender option. I like the Hijra's attitude towards all this. Claim that shit proudly son!

[Enkidu]

At the end of the day it's rather unnecessary for them to identify as a "3rd gender" rather then just understanding that not everyone will be attracted to their lifestyle. Isn't attraction really the crux of this matter? It's probably better for trans people to just let others identify them as "not male/female enough for me" rather then identifying themselves as such, basically.

[Gokku]

It really does suck that there such a heavy my way or the highway mentality with tolerance for and towards trans/lgbt community.

I strongly believe that if the SJW's would calm the Fuck down and take a Much more pleasant and informative approach to getting equality, people would be much more open to the idea.

It's shows in this thread and most others that get locked. Yes you've got a fairly liberal community on BG but it shouldn't take rocket science to take two steps back and go "hey my views are making other liberals think I'm to irrational, maybe I should chill the Fuck out.

I guess I'll echo the others and say this, it goes a long way towards moving people to change when you speak to them and rely actual information and facts not when you attack them for not holding ever one of your views to your standards.

I learned more about trans people and was infinitely happy to read and see niiro's journey pre/post op journey.

[Vandalhart]

I would agree being melodramatic doesn't really help one get taken seriously. People need to put on their big person pants, and grow a thicker skin and leave a little of that at the door. Which a majority of people in this thread are doing.

I've never interacted with Niro before, but if someone who did wanted to invite her over, I think it'd be a benefit. There seems to be two meanings, or at least two interpretations of transphobic I see here. One seems very much "for us or against us" and the other seems more along the lines of racist. Then second is what comes to mind when I hear the word.

[Kuya]

As koul said, there are trans people who prefer to be referred to as a transman or transwomam because they believe they do not have the same experiences as cis men and women. There are also trans people who prefer to be referred to as a man or woman.

It's a topic of debate and also an issue of preference.

[RKenshin]

I mostly lurk, but still read just about every post in this forum since its inception... and this has probably been the most level-headed, educational, and fair thread I've ever seen on an otherwise very hot/difficult discussion topic.

Some hiccups, but still leagues ahead of any other discussions I've seen/read on this topic (here or elsewhere).