Transgender Philosophy (Questions, Ideology)

[Aksannyi]

And yet we continue to wonder why the transgender people on this board don't feel like it's a safe place to speak out. I mean granted I know the world is tough but you know, in the thread for and about trans people, we could at least use language that makes the trans people on the board feel safe in sharing their personal experiences.

[BerenTebogo]

Using "they" or "them" instead of pronouns is a 100% acceptable regional thing. It's like the difference between pop and soda.

Asking people to never use "they" when writing about someone is like asking southerners to never say "ya'll".

It's patently ridiculous.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Every time I have ever typed "y'all" or "you folks" has been a stand-in for "you guys" which, around here, is gender-neutral. Just throwin' that out there.

Provided this conversation stays away from Hey, I'll allow it. Stick to abstracts.

[BerenTebogo]

Most abstract colloquial references are gender-neutral. The northeast, for example, a group of females talking to another group of females will still say "you guys" or "hey guys".

Language is fluid.

[Aksannyi]

I don't usually do the "they" thing so that must be a regional thing, I guess. I may have wrongfully assumed that everyone knew that hey prefers to be called by female pronouns.

Also, please keep the distinction between transgender - it is an adjective and not a noun. Transgender person, not "a transgender." I've been seeing that come back and it's not proper. I'm not going to argue over the "-ed" thing, but saying someone is "a transgender" is dehumanizing, or like transgender is the only thing about them, rather than just a part of who they are. Kind of like we don't call handicapped people "cripples" anymore because there is more to being handicapped than one's handicap. Not exactly the same (and I'm certainly not trying to imply that being trans is a handicap, at all), but we should always remember that everyone is a person, and things about them, such as being male, female, trans, black, smart, etc., are all modifiers to their personhood.

[BerenTebogo]

I don't usually do the "they" thing so that must be a regional thing, I guess. I may have wrongfully assumed that everyone knew that hey prefers to be called by female pronouns.

Also, please keep the distinction between transgender - it is an adjective and not a noun. Transgender person, not "a transgender." I've been seeing that come back and it's not proper. I'm not going to argue over the "-ed" thing, but saying someone is "a transgender" is dehumanizing, or like transgender is the only thing about them, rather than just a part of who they are. Kind of like we don't call handicapped people "cripples" anymore because there is more to being handicapped than one's handicap. Not exactly the same (and I'm certainly not trying to imply that being trans is a handicap, at all), but we should always remember that everyone is a person, and things about them, such as being male, female, trans, black, smart, etc., are all modifiers to their personhood.

Sweeping generalization again.

Kuya has already brought up that some transgender people prefer to be referred to as a trans-man or trans-woman. In the case of these people transgender being a noun would be their preference.

In the case of Hey, if she were still here, it would polite to stick to the adjective form and not the noun form.

You need to keep in mind Aks, that while you are playing advocate, you are not a member of their community and your exposure to said community is limited. You are well-meaning, but you are in no position to correct grammar on behalf of any entire community, especially one as diverse and fluid as the trans community.

Grammar policing regarding specific individuals who have stated their preference is one thing, what you are doing is another.

Well meaning =/= correct.

[Aksannyi]

Are you talking about the "they" thing, or the "verb vs. adjective" thing?

Because if it's the latter, I was specifically asked by one of the members on BG who is transgender to post that reminder.

"Trans-man" is fine, but saying "a trans" is not.

[Ksandra]

While this logically makes sense, and I can't speak for anyone who is trans, I'm not sure that's what they would want, to always have some differentiation. Trans women want to pass as women. Trans men want to pass as men. I don't think they want to always be separate.

To get this thread back on track, I think that this isn't a healthy mindset tbh.

I am going to use race as an example.

I have zero first hand experience of what it must be like living in the US as a black woman. I don't have the same struggles, I don't have the same type of negative reactions, I don't have the same type of hurdles to bear as a black woman does.

The idea of "colorblindness" is ridiculous even in this day and age, because attention does need to be brought to various races to help overcome the various hurdles they have. This even includes white people need attention in understanding their own bigotry and racism that they may not realize they do (aka all the cop shit going on atm).

Now, recognizing that we sometimes need to focus on what struggles a black woman in particular may have doesn't mean they are somehow subhuman or anything. It is not a negative. I find it rather unhealthy that a trans person would want to deny they are trans because in order to do so they deny all the struggles that they and others have to face.

Don't get me wrong, it is a nice goal to have just as much as it is a nice goal to have for a black woman to have zero difference. But it isn't the reality right now. And even if there is zero difference, there should be nothing wrong with embracing your sexuality or gender or skin color or hair color or w/e the fuck you want.

I really do think the obsession with trying to hide the trans part is rather unhealthy. I think we need to work towards people being accepting of trans people, not pretending like the concept of a trans person doesn't exist.

I hope that makes any sort of sense.

[Aksannyi]

I hope that makes any sort of sense.

It does, quite a lot of sense, and I can't really argue against that. I think when I'm talking about trans men and trans women wanting to be seen as men and women, that on some level, they just want to be able to go to the grocery store without weird stares or without having to qualify their right to exist, if that makes sense? Granted, trans people will have a more difficult time especially dating, but I think they generally just want to "pass" as their gender, not necessarily be invisible or have their trans identities erased.

I suppose that is a rather fine line to walk, though.

[BerenTebogo]

Are you talking about the "they" thing, or the "verb vs. adjective" thing?

Because if it's the latter, I was specifically asked by one of the members on BG who is transgender to post that reminder.

"Trans-man" is fine, but saying "a trans" is not.

Posting a reminder on behalf of someone is one thing, fine. But the majority of your posts in here recently have been grammar policing, and not all of them have been correct.

It might be better for you to just stick to doing it when prompted by a member of the community, a la the noun vs. adjective statement. Which is the case here, but not in the "they" case.

People who are having trouble making the distinction are more likely to listen when you're posting constructive criticism, not half constructive half wrong.

Personally, as someone who strives to use the correct syntax (and I don't think I've got it wrong yet) the constant grammar policing makes me want to skip every post of yours that I see. Assuming others feel the same way, the constructive criticism you are relaying on behalf of others isn't reaching the intended audience.

[Aksannyi]

I think I've only had a few posts about grammar though, so I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from, but I'm going to work on some homework now so if you guys respond to any of my points further then I'll respond later.

[Ksandra]

It does, quite a lot of sense, and I can't really argue against that. I think when I'm talking about trans men and trans women wanting to be seen as men and women, that on some level, they just want to be able to go to the grocery store without weird stares or without having to qualify their right to exist, if that makes sense?

I get that, and you are 100% correct that they deserve to be treated as normally as we should treat everyone else.

But I disagree that is all every one of them wants. I cannot generalize since I don't know every single transperson on the planet. But I will say I strongly suspect that is not far enough for someone like hey, and some other transpeople I have talked to on the internet. That they expect to be treated exactly as a nontrans woman today. And that isn't healthy or realistic.

[Penthesilea]

Are you talking about the "they" thing, or the "verb vs. adjective" thing?

Because if it's the latter, I was specifically asked by one of the members on BG who is transgender to post that reminder.

"Trans-man" is fine, but saying "a trans" is not.

except if I recall correctly, it was acceptable to certain people who posted in this very thread.

EDIT: nevermind, went back and found the post and it was saying trans as including transgender and transsexual, not as a noun.

[Salodin]

Yes, I do recall she-who-shall-not-be-named saying that "trans" is acceptable. Why were correcting grammar when the individuals in question can't even come to a consensus on what the correct grammar is, is in my mind, a waste of time. If you like being addressed a certain way then say so, but don't be upset when we don't call others the same thing for reasons already stated.

[Stumblingdrunk]

Yes, I do recall she-who-shall-not-be-named saying that "trans" is acceptable. Why were correcting grammar when the individuals in question can't even come to a consensus on what the correct grammar is, is in my mind, a waste of time. If you like being addressed a certain way then say so, but don't be upset when we don't call others the same thing for reasons already stated.

She said trans people, not a trans.

[Salodin]

Stand corrected. Second statement still stands, I recall the link being posted after her breakdown.

[Aksannyi]

Yes, I do recall she-who-shall-not-be-named saying that "trans" is acceptable. Why were correcting grammar when the individuals in question can't even come to a consensus on what the correct grammar is, is in my mind, a waste of time. If you like being addressed a certain way then say so, but don't be upset when we don't call others the same thing for reasons already stated.

Trans is acceptable. Using transgender/trans as a NOUN and not an ADJECTIVE is the issue here. If you say "she is trans" then that is correct, "is" as a linking verb can link either a noun or an adjective to the subject. "John is smart." "Shelly is tall." "Jess is trans." "Mike is gay." "Shaun is a dancer." Etc.

Note that I said "Jess is trans," not "Jess is a trans." That "A" makes all of the difference. Is links "trans to Jess," essentially trans modifies Jess, so it would be "trans Jess" (tall Shelly, smart John, gay Mike.) Trans Jess, of course, is not grammatically correct, but this is how parts of speech work. And yes, I'm going all fucking English teacher on y'all because no one seems to understand the difference between a noun and an adjective.

If you can put "the" or "a" before it, then it's a noun. A truck, the bat, the bar, a cat. You don't say a purple, a bright, a fat, a salty. Similarly, you don't say a trans/transgender. I'm not arguing between using trans or transgender, I'm arguing about not using transgender as a noun. I really didn't think I would have to inform BG what I meant by noun vs. adjective because this is third grade grammar, but here we go.

Thanks, Stumbling, you beat me to it, but I'm gonna leave this here, in case anyone else is still confused lol.

[Salodin]

So I was correct then, trans is ok. Man, why can't intent be enough any more? No one here intends to insult trans people, why can't we leave it at that and move on?

[Gokku]

So I was correct then, trans is ok. Man, why can't intent be enough any more? No one here intends to insult trans people, why can't we leave it at that and move on?

This shit its like picking a fight we the few people who are generally on your side.

[Aksannyi]

I honestly did misunderstand at least one of the posts in this thread, and I have apologized for that when I've recognized that. Intent is hard to discern from just spoken words.

I'll admit that this is one issue I'm very passionate about and that I got a little heated a bit ago. I can't really apologize for my passion but I will apologize for getting heated and resolve not to do it in the future.