Transgender Philosophy (Questions, Ideology)

[Aksannyi]

And yet youre perfectly okay with "i feel i identify as a female because i enjoy doing feminine things"? This sounds like youre trying to have your cake and eat it too (which is an expression ive never really understood).

Im not trying to start shit, just trying to understand something that isnt making sense in my head.

I never said that I identify as a female because I do feminine things. I identify as a female because I know in my head and my heart that I am a female. That's all.

Feminism respects a woman's choice to be girly if she wants, or to not be girly if she wants. It's not about decrying ultra-feminine things like dresses, high heels, and make-up, nor is it about decrying wearing sweatpants, a dirty t-shirt, and sneakers. Feminism wants to encourage women to dress however they feel comfortable, and not be judged or treated lesser because of it.

Part of the problem is that anything ultra-feminine is automatically viewed in society very negatively. People look down on women for wearing make-up, for example, or for crying during sappy movies. Feminism is about respecting a woman's choice to live her own type of womanhood, and getting society to stop regarding anything feminine as weak or bad. Keep in mind, we insult our men by calling them "ladies" on a regular basis. To be told "you throw like a girl" implies that being a girl is a bad thing. So what if I throw like a girl? There are a lot of things I do like a girl, because I am one, and I'm not ashamed of that.

I identify as a woman because I have always known in my heart that I am a woman. It has nothing to do with the activities that I like to do, some of which are girly and some of which are not. That's what you guys are not understanding here. Gender isn't about the activities you like, or the way you dress. Gender is entirely about how you recognize yourself, your inner self, who you are at your very core.

[Gredival]

not ashamed of that. I identify as a woman because I have always known in my heart that I am a woman. It has nothing to do with the activities that I like to do, some of which are girly and some of which are not. That's what you guys are not understanding here. Gender isn't about the activities you like, or the way you dress. Gender is entirely about how you recognize yourself, your inner self, who you are at your very core.

I believe the issue here is that people don't understand how gender is non-binary if you aren't evaluating it through the scope of traditional stereotypes.

If we are rejecting traditional gender stereotypes it seems like gender must necessarily be binary; a female is a female regardless of how traditionally feminine her behavior and interests are, and a male is a male regardless of how traditionally masculine his behavior and interests are.

It's unclear what it means to be 60% male 40% female. On face, the rational assumption is that such an individual is male (in virtue of his identification tilting male) but more effeminate than someone who is 100% male. But to say he's less than 100% male because he likes dolls or because likes to wear a dress relies on the very gender norms we have rejected. So what then are we talking about when we say he is more effeminate than someone who is 100% male? The very act of trying to reason why he's less male seems to be the very sort of normative categorization we're trying to resist.

Positing that there's two classifications, wherein individuals within either one of those classifications can diverge wildly from one another, seems to be the less essentialist than the alternative. To say there's an infinite array of classifications based on relative percentages seems more fluid, but those percentages existing relies on us positing that there's a definitive "way" to be male or female.

At most it seems you could say there's three or four genders max if you wished to make a third category for transgendered people, or a third and fourth by splitting MtF/FtM into separate categories. And that would be contentious as only some transgendered people would want to say their gender experience merits being classified any differently than a natural born-male/born-female.

[BaneTheBrawler]

The best way I can picture it is like a crystal, with many facets.

Go forth in the light of the Seven.

Nynja, if I give you a slice of cake, and you eat it, you no longer have any cake. The phrase refers to an attempt to take an action and avoid all consequences, or take two mutually exclusive actions at the same time.

[Koul]

After reading your reasons for thinking you're female on the inside, it's just hollow stuff to me. As has been mentioned liking traditionally "female" things does NOT mean you are female.

And by Aks definition on identity, that's justifying the existence of trans-race or trans-species stuff. Not that I give two shits about that because if some white dude identifies more as an Asian man, more power to him. I think it's dumb but that's my shit opinion. I look forward to the thread on trans-race surgeries etc. Oh, wait

I guess everyone who made fun of Michael Jackson for turning into a white man were being transphobic. Which is further fucked up because he became white due to the accident he had with that pepsi(or coke?) commercial he made in the 80's

[NynJa]

I never said that I identify as a female because I do feminine things. I identify as a female because I know in my head and my heart that I am a female. That's all.

I wasnt talking about you identifying as a female, I was talking about Yuri identifying as a female because they enjoy doing female things:

@ Salodin, it's not just the emotional half of me. I guess I would say I identify as societally-female, if that helps? I fit in better with women, my friends are all women, I prefer female voices (I have almost no music sung by men), I sometimes wish I was a woman just because I'm jealous of how much more fun they get to have with fashion... there are lots of reasons.

"I enjoy female activities therefor I feel I'm female gender". This should piss you off since

the strict imposition of gender roles is something that feminists do strongly disagree with, yes.

but you're not, you're actually embracing it and encouraging it right now, and thats just what's really really confusing me.

[Zeb]

Which is further fucked up because he became white due to the accident he had with that pepsi(or coke?) commercial he made in the 80's

I think you're confusing Michael Jackson with The Joker.

[Galkaeater]

Part of the problem is that anything ultra-feminine is automatically viewed in society very negatively. People look down on women for wearing make-up, for example, or for crying during sappy movies.

Not even worth putting in the first world problems thread.

[Koul]

I think you're confusing Michael Jackson with The Joker.

if troll lolyuhgotme if not his hair caught on fire and he got royally fucked up. if memory serves, he hadda get a buttload of skin graphs and if he didn't bleach his skin he'd look even weirder due to splotchy skin colors etc

also @ the above. I do not nor would I ever consider wearing make-up or crying during sappy movies to be "ultra-feminine" lol... anything in absolute excess is bad. Ultra-femininity is bad as is ultra-masculinity. You need balance.

[Thunder]

I have finally found the strength to admit it.

I was 12 years old when I realized that I’m not really a man at heart, but rather an A-10 Thunderbolt.

All my life has been a lie but I’m setting that right today. I was designed to kill Soviet tanks. From now on, call me “Warthog.” That’s my real name.

I’m having plastic surgeons attach a GAU-8 Avenger 30 milimeter rotary cannon, 1,200 pounds of titanium armor, and two General Electric TF34-GE-100 turbofan engines to my body. Sgt. Major Fairchild said I’m fucking stupid and I can’t be a jet, but I’m beautiful and I am a goddamn jet.

If the Army won’t pay for me to get the surgery, I’m just going to bring in Code Pink and point out that that Manning loser is getting hormones and he’s in prison so why shouldn’t a perfectly well-adjusted and honorably serving soldier have the right to be who they truly are, a metal killing machine?

I am so sick and tired of being oppressed. Now we A-10’s are on Congress’s chopping block. It’s sickening to see all the white cisgender nazi shitlords literally raping my people with their actions.

It’s my right to spray 2,100 to 4,200 depleted uranium rounds per minute at both soft and hard targets and if you don’t support me and my transformation then you’re an aerialphobe and need to check your weapon platform privilege.

[Aksannyi]

but you're not, you're actually embracing it and encouraging it right now, and thats just what's really really confusing me.

Please quote specific passages where I'm imposing any gender roles on anybody. You are all so hung up on a person's actions determining their gender. It is not about actions. At all. If I were hung up on gender roles and considering those an integral part of who someone is, then there's a damn good chance I would not be sitting here claiming that I am 100% female, because there are a shitload of traditionally (there, is that better?) non-girly things that I enjoy. I'm not going to feel like less of a female because I like video games and hockey, which are both typically regarded as more masculine pastimes. I personally hate that pastimes are considered male or female. They should not be. And they should not be used as a determination of gender.

[Gokku]

I have finally found the strength to admit it.

I was 12 years old when I realized that I’m not really a man at heart, but rather an A-10 Thunderbolt.

All my life has been a lie but I’m setting that right today. I was designed to kill Soviet tanks. From now on, call me “Warthog.” That’s my real name.

I’m having plastic surgeons attach a GAU-8 Avenger 30 milimeter rotary cannon, 1,200 pounds of titanium armor, and two General Electric TF34-GE-100 turbofan engines to my body. Sgt. Major Fairchild said I’m fucking stupid and I can’t be a jet, but I’m beautiful and I am a goddamn jet.

If the Army won’t pay for me to get the surgery, I’m just going to bring in Code Pink and point out that that Manning loser is getting hormones and he’s in prison so why shouldn’t a perfectly well-adjusted and honorably serving soldier have the right to be who they truly are, a metal killing machine?

I am so sick and tired of being oppressed. Now we A-10’s are on Congress’s chopping block. It’s sickening to see all the white cisgender nazi shitlords literally raping my people with their actions.

It’s my right to spray 2,100 to 4,200 depleted uranium rounds per minute at both soft and hard targets and if you don’t support me and my transformation then you’re an aerialphobe and need to check your weapon platform privilege.

https://youtu.be/_AIFoBRIny0

[BaneTheBrawler]

Transformers

the conspiracy is revealed!

Jokes are fine, just... be civil. You all have been doing quite well in that regard so far.

[NynJa]

Can someone who understands what im saying tey to relay it to Aks? Shes still thinking im alluding to her being female or not.

[Jefe]

Nah.

[Aksannyi]

Can someone who understands what im saying tey to relay it to Aks? Shes still thinking im alluding to her being female or not.

No, I don't, but I'm talking about myself because I am the only person whose gender identity I fully understand.

[Lyall]

This will sound a lot harsher than I mean it, so please excuse my clumsy inadequate language.

Gender fluidity reminds me a lot of the "wiccan" kids in high school. Everyone had powers, everyone had the ability to use magick (gotta have the k) and everyone was somehow special and unique in different ways (and all claiming it in the same, slightly altered way).

It's something I just can't wrap my head around. That's fine, though, I don't begrudge anyone who feels that way. Reading Yuri's posts made it clear it was working for him, and nobody's got any authority to say otherwise. I just shrug and go back to reading about comics and video games.

[NynJa]

No, I don't, but I'm talking about myself because I am the only person whose gender identity I fully understand.

Okay, then explain to me why "gender roles" are bad and frowned upon but Yuri saying "I identify as a female because I enjoy female gender roles" is okay and you're encouraging it?

[Salodin]

Okay, then explain to me why "gender roles" are bad and frowned upon but Yuri saying "I identify as a female because I enjoy female gender roles" is okay and you're encouraging it?

See? You can do it if you try hard enough lol.

[NynJa]

See? You can do it if you try hard enough lol.

Its easier when I'm posting from my pc and not from my phone. I have no idea why.

[Aksannyi]

Okay, then explain to me why "gender roles" are bad and frowned upon but Yuri saying "I identify as a female because I enjoy female gender roles" is okay and you're encouraging it?

Because I don't see it that way. I see it as Yuri trying to explain a difficult concept via those means. It's very hard to explain gender fluidity to people who don't understand it. If those are the things that makes Yuri feel, in part, female, then who am I to judge that? I feel female too when I engage in traditionally female things. There isn't anything wrong with that. And Yuri has said that there are times when he (unsure if male pronouns are appropriate here, sorry if not) feels more like a man. I'm not here to shit on anyone's personal understanding of their gender.

All of that doesn't mean that I (or anyone else) am imposing roles on someone. I honestly don't know how else to explain this. I am encouraging anyone who doesn't feel entirely like they fit into either "male" or "female" to wonder if they fall somewhere in between, on a spectrum. I am not genderfluid, so I don't know what that's like. If Yuri feels like a man sometimes and feels like a woman others, how that manifests is, again, very personal to his own personal experience.

I think you are hung up on the things Yuri says makes him feel more like a woman. No one is imposing those roles on him, though. If he feels like a woman when doing traditionally womanly things, good for him! If he doesn't, also good for him! If he wants to fit into a typically feminine mold then good. No one is imposing that on him. You're assuming that people cannot act in "traditional" ways because that automatically means they accept and identify with patriarchal gender roles. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am allowed to be as feminine or as masculine as I want, and absolutely none of that has any bearing on what gender I identify as. It also does not mean that I am oppressed by the patriarchy because I choose to wear high heels to a party.

The problem arises when people push such things upon others. "What do you mean you like video games? You're a girl!" Things like that. Society says I can't do X because I'm a woman, and you can't do Y because you're a man. That is the type of shit I am talking about when I mention the imposition of strict gender roles. Perception of these things are (slowly) changing, but the argument that "You can't do <insert traditionally girly thing>, you'll set the feminist movement back decades!" That is also a strict and terrible imposition of a gender role. If Yuri wants to cite feeling more feminine by X, Y, and Z, then fine. There is nothing wrong with that. No one told Yuri that he has to feel like a woman because of those activities - he just does. He is allowed to. It is only when you rally against that mindset that you begin to impose.

The entire point of non-imposition of gender roles is giving a person the opportunity to choose their own version of how to be a woman or how to be a man on their own. If Yuri chooses to be a woman by spending time with other women or feeling like a warrior princess, then that's fucking awesome. If I feel like a woman by sitting in front of the TV yelling at the Penguins when they do something fucking boneheaded in the playoffs, then that is also fucking awesome. The fact is, no one pushed those roles on us, and we're entitled to adopt them however we see fit.

The more oppressive of the patriarchy would be opposed to me, a woman, liking anything that is masculine, and the more radical feminists would be opposed to me, a woman, enjoying things that are feminine. Both are examples of toxic gender role imposition, and both need to be done away with.