Transgender Philosophy (Questions, Ideology)

[Stilzkin]

I identify as a woman because I have always known in my heart that I am a woman. It has nothing to do with the activities that I like to do, some of which are girly and some of which are not. That's what you guys are not understanding here. Gender isn't about the activities you like, or the way you dress. Gender is entirely about how you recognize yourself, your inner self, who you are at your very core.

How do you know you identify as a woman without having some sort of concept of what a woman is beforehand? That feeling that you have can't be recognized as that of being a woman without you first coming to a conclusion of what that would be like. That conclusion would have to come from your concept of a woman which has to come from behaviors that are being associated as those of a woman.

I don't think you can disassociate activities from gender.

No one told Yuri that he has to feel like a woman because of those activities - he just does. He is allowed to.

Is there anything wrong with society having an idea of what masculine and feminine means? What's the use of those concepts if everyone is allowed to come up with their own meaning of them?. The only real problem seems to be the stigmatization of people who associate with more than one.

There also seems to be some weird biological thing going on when people desire to feel masculine or feminine. What does that mean?

[Yuri-G]

So... some people are saying "You can't judge your gender by masculine or feminine; those are just concepts, they don't define your gender."

Other people are saying "Masculinity and feminity are a thing and you can't just ignore them."

I'm clearly paraphrasing, but that's the gist of what I'm getting here, and I find that interesting.

How do we define our inner gender then? Is gender just a cock or a cunt? Is it liking barbies or GI Joes? Is it possible to have a different inner gender/outer gender, or is that just people being fussy?

I like being gender-fluid. I have a maculine side and a feminine side, and while the feminine side is dominant I still have access to both - which is amazing. I feel like I was always gender-fluid, I just didn't know what it means. I am happy to try and explain it to people but I certainly have no need to defend my feelings nor seek your approval of them.

Spoiler: show

Just waiting for someone to say "What does masculine side/feminine side mean?" and start this all over... I could try and explain but it would take a lifetime. Try answering "How do you know who you are?" because that's basically what the question is.

[Eurell]

I think everyone else is in agreement that you can be totally feminine but still be 100% male. Again, if you're happy with it, that's great. But its definitely a confusing concept, and not many people will understand/agree with you if you think having a feminine dominant side makes you a woman.

[Yuri-G]

There also seems to be some weird biological thing going on when people desire to feel masculine or feminine. What does that mean?

My understanding is that this is something a little different from what I'm talking about - biological gender is a whole other area of study. I don't know much about transgendered people but from what I gather it's similar to body dysmorphia, where you're like "Well shit, I'm not supposed to have an arm, so I should chop that arm off because it doesn't belong." Yes, I am stating that transgendered people are mentally ill from a clinical standpoint - I don't mean that to be hurtful, it's simply a medical condition wherein the brain is literally incapable of accepting the body as it exists. So yes, that is biological, and my heart goes out to the people who struggle with it.

[Yuri-G]

I think everyone else is in agreement that you can be totally feminine but still be 100% male. Again, if you're happy with it, that's great. But its definitely a confusing concept, and not many people will understand/agree with you if you think having a feminine dominant side makes you a woman.

Hmm. When you say "identify as a woman," that brings up a question - do I?

If anything, I identify as a woman in a man's body - and I like that identity. Does that make me crazy and/or fussy and/or adding pointless labels to myself? Probably... but I fucking like it, so I'ma roll with it. I am perfectly fine with people not understanding or agreeing, because it's something I own all to myself, you know? I'm only sharing it on here because a) I think it's interesting and b) I like the idea that someone else might understand their own life experience better by hearing about mine.

Hell, if you were all like "Oh I totally get it, that's cool" I'd be like "Bullshit." lol

[Ksandra]

It should be noted that the term transgender includes transsexuals. I actually feel transsexuality makes a lot of sense because it it more about the physical self. Even the pre-op concept makes sense since there are so many reasons why they may not be able to transition.


I have to agree the gender identity only concept doesn't make much sense to me because of what is being said above. Gender is a social construct, and isn't defined because of the sex. There are a lot of transgender people who have zero desire to have their physical bodies changed, and that makes zero sense to me.

The idea of non binary gender also sounds rather silly to me.

[Stilzkin]

My understanding is that this is something a little different from what I'm talking about - biological gender is a whole other area of study. I don't know much about transgendered people but from what I gather it's similar to body dysmorphia, where you're like "Well shit, I'm not supposed to have an arm, so I should chop that arm off because it doesn't belong." Yes, I am stating that transgendered people are mentally ill from a clinical standpoint - I don't mean that to be hurtful, it's simply a medical condition wherein the brain is literally incapable of accepting the body as it exists. So yes, that is biological, and my heart goes out to the people who struggle with it.

So you are saying you enjoy activities that you associate with being feminine or you are conceptually attracted to the idea of being feminine. Rather than you having an inner desire, a feeling of wanting something or being satisfied by something, which you identify as being effeminate?

[Yuri-G]

Sorry, I use the term transgendered incorrectly sometimes. I meant transsexual.

Non-binary gender also sounds silly to me, and yet what I experience sounds silly to other people, so I'm willing to consider the notion regardless.

Gender as social construct is only part of what I'm talking about - it's a huge part, but it's more than just that. I keep coming back to the example of the Warrior Princess - that's my girl. That's where my strength comes from.

One thing that might be interesting or shed some light on this is that almost all of my feelings of power and domination come from a feminine place and feelings of submission come from a masculine place. Don't ask me how I know that; it's just something I experience. Obviously, then, I'm going to identify more with the female state because fuck being a victim in this world.

[Yuri-G]

So you are saying you enjoy activities that you associate with being feminine or you are conceptually attracted to the idea of being feminine. Rather than you having an inner desire, a feeling of wanting something or being satisfied by something, which you identify as being effeminate?

I'm not sure I get your question, but I'll try?

I used to have a desire... but it was a desire to be more masculine. I thought if I could be more of a dude I'd fit in better, be more respected, etc. That's bullshit, but it's how I felt. I never had a desire to be more effeminate or associate with feminine things; that part is more innate. If anything I tried to subjugate that part of myself and push it down. Saying "I feel like a woman in a man's body" is my way of owning that shit and saying "Yes, I'm masculine, but I'm also feminine, and my feminine side is both stronger and more kinds of fuckawesome than my male side - that's just me, YMMV."

I think people are becoming confused by the way I'm saying this - I am not transgender in the medical sense. Not at all. I'm happy with my inside and my outside. It's just that my inside feels more like a woman than a man.

[NynJa]

Because I don't see it that way.

So you're perfectly ok with Yuri saying "I identify as a female because I enjoy doing feminine things" even after you just said that the notion of having "feminine things" is something that strongly upsets most feminists? Nothing in your post (which, yes I did read it all) has given any indication that you're trying for anything other than . I have nothing against Yuri's decision on something she (I'm presuming going forward this is their preference? I havent read any preference from Yuri) feel happier about, I support anyones decision to do what makes them comfortable and happy in life as long as it does not harm others, but thats also cause I'm not the one whos against the concept of "feminine things and masculine things". I dont think women who play contact sports are butch dykes, nor I dont think men who are models are gay either.

If Bane would like to move our discussion to the feminism thread, as to not detract from Yuri's discussion, I'm fine with that, since it may be more suited there. But the fact of the matter is, you've said multiple times that "gender roles are a terrible" and here you are encouraging and applauding someone born as a male saying they identify as a female over "enjoyment of feminine activities". You cant have it both ways Aks.

[Eurell]

I think what confuses most people (myself at least) is the whole feeling like you having different (there should be a better word but I cant think of it right now)sides inside.

Like, I don't feel like I have a masculine side or feminine side or anything in me. I'm just me. Doesn't matter what I'm doing, or how it makes me feel or react emotionally, its all just how I am. Being masculine or feminine doesn't change you from male to female or vice versa. It's just your personality imo

Again, just my thoughts, not trying to tell you how to live or identify or w/e

[Yuri-G]

I still prefer he. Although... now that you call me she, it actually doesn't feel wrong. So I'm ok with that too.

Huh. Weird.

Eurell, you are perfectly cool not understanding what I'm saying. We all have different experiences internally.

And just to be clear, I do not feel feminine because I enjoy feminine things. It's hard to explain to someone who doesn't experience it... I don't even necessarily feel feminine, just female. Also male, but primarily female. The part where enjoying feminine things comes in is the social contract part... that I am still trying to figure out.

[thetruepandagod]

Try answering "How do you know who you are?" because that's basically what the question is.

[Charismatic]

#dead

[Yuri-G]

fuck. yeah I don't have a comeback to that.

[thetruepandagod]

Ever since i was a lil kid I would get feelings like "my hair should be blonde, not black" and "my eyes aren't supposed to be brown". I couldn't decide what color they were supposed to be though, changing between blue or green, but unsure of which. As I grew older though, the image sort of slowly became sharper, such as the exact height, musculature, facial features... I would see something in life and suddenly it would be like something "clicked" after seeing an example of exactly what I was looking for, such as the exact shade of green eyes.

I am fairly sure that everyone has at least a slightly different image of themselves mentally than the physical manifestation that they see in the mirror when they wake up or when they see themselves recorded.

I'd say it's something to do with being sexually attracted to the sex that you are

Disagree that that is an integral part of this whatsoever.

there's definitely an element of desiring to be the traits you find attractive, since you can directly contrast them with your body, unlike heterosexuals. Totally affects self-perception, often negatively, fueling self-esteem issues.

Everyone desires traits from someone else be they physical or mental. Not all men that want muscles like arnold schwarzenegger or frank zane are homosexual, nor are all women who starve themselves or get ass implants to look like models lesbian. I for one would love to have perfectly pale skin with green eyes and black hair as I find that most aesthetically pleasing for both sexes, and my sexuality does not come into play regardless.

A short skinny man wanting to be a tall muscular man has nothing to do with sexuality. Desiring the traits of another person only comes down to poor self image(and poor self image can be warranted), and greater respect for anothers image.

[Yuri-G]

hrm I have to disagree with you on the last part. human beings have a very strong potential to fetishize and sexualize that which we do not possess. the healthier way to experience such feelings is to either a) acquire those traits in ourselves (working out if you like hot bodies, for example) or b) appreciate those traits in others without attaching desire... but we aren't always healthy.

of course it's not always about sex. there are lots of other ways that shit can manifest. but it can be about sex, sometimes. anima/animus, we want to be complete by acquiring that which we don't have, etc.

[Nirokun!]

Hi!

I'm here because I namesearch myself sometimes because I'm curious what people say about me when I'm not looking. (They're usually nice things as far as I can remember!) I feel like I should help and be a part of the discussion, but I've been "busy with life" (in addition to FFXIV :D). Disclaimer, my computer is having issues but I think it will be okay as long as I go easy on it. I hope to not forget about this discussion. I've got a lot going on now with this new job thing getting started, the bf, the house, the puppy, and managing spending time with both of our families. I'll try!

(This is my puppy, and I posted this image to my facebook "'I love feets!' - Honeybear")


Edit: I guess this is where I answer your questions as best I can?

[Charismatic]

If there was a like button I would like that post because the lovely Nirokun is here.
I have no specific questions but I would like to see where this goes.

[thetruepandagod]

Honestly niro would have to just read this entire thread from start to finish. The main thing was that people wanted niro's opinions/comments on the various micro discussions that popped up in here as she is one of the least abrasive and more understanding people on the forums.