Transgender Philosophy (Questions, Ideology)

[Nirokun!]

If there was a like button I would like that post because the lovely Nirokun is here.
I have no specific questions but I would like to see where this goes.

I often look for the "Like" button. lol

Honestly niro would have to just read this entire thread from start to finish. The main thing was that people wanted niro's opinions/comments on the various micro discussions that popped up in here as she is one of the least abrasive and more understanding people on the forums.

I'll do the best I can, this is a bit daunting! I'll start sometime (dinner now, more time on the weekend, or tomorrow depending on the weather), I know I'm late and nobody has been waiting this long! I'll try to offer my thoughts as I read through. I hope it's not frustrating to have me semi-necro these discussions.

[thetruepandagod]

I hope it's not frustrating to have me semi-necro these discussions.

Infinitely less frustrating than having the discussions in real time with Hey.

[Jefe]

At least he's gone.

[Melena]

At least he's gone.

and incoming shit storm in 3.2.1......

[Aksannyi]

At least he's gone.

You may not have liked hey, but please don't misgender her, even in her absence.

NynJa, I'm sorry, but you are not understanding my points at all, and I am absolutely unsure of how to explain myself any clearer. I really do not want to continue to go around in circles with you, so you go ahead and continue whatever it is you want to believe. I said my piece and I've explained my position. If you don't want to understand, that's fine. I just am not going to repeat myself ad nauseum.

[thetruepandagod]

You may not have liked hey, but please don't misgender her, even in her absence.

It's nothing against gender politics whatsoever it's about hey, and if someone want's to freely insult hey in a way that would get the desired result than why not. Calling me a little girly bitch isn't misgendering me, it's just insulting me.

[Gredival]

The purpose of flaming is to find and use whatever is available to get the desired effect. Most of the time the speakers aren't actually prejudicial, it's just that homophobic, racist, sexist, etc. slurs and comments are the easiest way to set the target off.

That being said "bashing another user because you don’t like them" is explicitly against the rules; hey is on a long term mandatory break and we need not dwell further the shitstorms and derails to this thread caused by her.

[thetruepandagod]

I wish I could just put what i type through a gred filter.

[Nirokun!]

I'll kick this off with a question:

I saw Kuya mention a birth-certificate sex change bill. I understand why someone would want to change this to reflect their actual identity, but would there be any repercussions as far as medical treatment? Like, could you accidentally get dosages for the wrong genetic sex, or what? Would it even matter if you did? I know genetic sex makes a difference on some things, I just don't know how many or how much of a difference.

There are, but I don't know every single possible situation. Not knowing that you've transitioned MTF would, assuming your provider believes you to be a biological woman (in this example), would leave them asking if you're on birth control/the date of your last period/etc. I can't think of any medicines that are dosed by sex, more often it's by weight.

Fun fact: I haven't changed the name/sex on my birth certificate as of yet. I'd have to print and mail things which means I'm lazy. I was in a bit of a panic, as my job offer required me to submit proof of my ability to work in the U.S., which included birth certificate in the list. I called up HR and the lady said my Driver's License and Social Security Card were good enough. I've had those changed (not sex through Social Security, I went once but it was closed, never went back because /lazy.)

(Aksannyi seems to have a really good grasp on these issues, she swoops in and drops the knowledge bomb as I read through. *High-five*!)

(Ooh, Mazmaz, too!)

As much as I want to acknowledge people who take the words (and formulate them into more succinct teaching nuggets) out of my mouth, it's not contributing!

***Going to preface this by saying that I'm late as fuck and if you already understand what I'm about to tell you, disregard, otherwise this will hopefully help you and anyone with a similar mindset understand.***

The point is that it's insincere (not insecure?) to approach someone with romantic interest if they would not be interested had they known your genetics. The only reason to do such a thing is being deviant. Perhaps you should step back and realize I wasn't calling transgendered people deviant, but rather the act of knowingly deceiving someone who otherwise would have not put themselves in that situation.

It's like you're so involved with the idea that a transgendered woman should just be accepted as a woman that you forget that it can psychologically traumatic for a cisgender man to find out a romantic interest is not actually a cisgender female.

In the same vein, would it be insincere to approach someone with romantic interest if they would not be interested had they known your kinks? Hell, any woman can cosign this, (heterosexual) men in general approach women (in all capacities, seriously seeking a relationship to catcalling) who have zero interest in them. Is it insincere to approach these women of unknown status (in a relationship, not interested in men like you, not interested in men, etc.)?

Approaching someone implies that unknown factor, you're "getting to know" them. Just as someone holds back that they're into (insert expansive list of sexual kinks) during that "getting to know" phase, a pre/non-operative transwoman is also getting to know you. Based on her feelings of safety and personal preference, she may disclose. Maybe, just maybe, she thought you "could tell" that she was a transwoman, and you approaching her made her feel like she was wanted/accepted, and the genitalia conversation was politely saved for another time. In that world of possibility (who puts what where, etc.), maybe the both of you would want to feel more comfortable with eachother before going there.

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[NynJa]

That being said "bashing another user because you don’t like them" is explicitly against the rules;

SINCE WHEN?!?!? So you mean all these times i could have doritoed people who tell me to kill myself just cuz they dont like me?!

[Enkidu]

In the same vein, would it be insincere to approach someone with romantic interest if they would not be interested had they known your kinks? Hell, any woman can cosign this, (heterosexual) men in general approach women (in all capacities, seriously seeking a relationship to catcalling) who have zero interest in them. Is it insincere to approach these women of unknown status (in a relationship, not interested in men like you, not interested in men, etc.)?

Approaching someone implies that unknown factor, you're "getting to know" them. Just as someone holds back that they're into (insert expansive list of sexual kinks) during that "getting to know" phase, a pre/non-operative transwoman is also getting to know you. Based on her feelings of safety and personal preference, she may disclose. Maybe, just maybe, she thought you "could tell" that she was a transwoman, and you approaching her made her feel like she was wanted/accepted, and the genitalia conversation was politely saved for another time. In that world of possibility (who puts what where, etc.), maybe the both of you would want to feel more comfortable with eachother before going there.

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In an earlier post I clarified "beyond casual conversation", which I think is what you're mostly describing. I was talking about the step from casual to romantic. Assuming it's already known is an interesting point, I'm not sure what it would take to make that assumption though? I would think it'd be hard to even drop hints at something like that, it's just not something most guys are thinking about honestly. I guess if you meet in a trans club and dude is just completely oblivious.

The heart of the issue is identification. The quote I commented on was basically saying "they're a woman, so why should they have to say anything". A trans woman can identify as a woman, and I can respect that while at the same time identifying them as trans rather then a woman.

[Eurell]

A trans woman can identify as a woman, and I can respect that while at the same time identifying them as trans rather then a woman.

Trans is an adjective though. That's like saying you identify someone as fast instead of a man.

If its just not about being interested in trans women, w/e, thats your call. But the way you worded it doesn't make any sense.

[Vandalhart]

I often look for the "Like" button. lol



I'll do the best I can, this is a bit daunting! I'll start sometime (dinner now, more time on the weekend, or tomorrow depending on the weather), I know I'm late and nobody has been waiting this long! I'll try to offer my thoughts as I read through. I hope it's not frustrating to have me semi-necro these discussions.

You'll see at some point that someone linked my your transition thread. I read through it and was even going to send a PM after, but we hadn't interacted before so I figured it'd be strange. That being said, it was a very interesting read, and I'm glad things are going well for you (at lest they seem to be from your post).

[NynJa]

Trans is an adjective though. That's like saying you identify someone as fast instead of a man.

If its just not about being interested in trans women, w/e, thats your call. But the way you worded it doesn't make any sense.

And up until a couple yrs ago, the only 2 sexes were M and F. my how things change.

[Stumblingdrunk]

someone linked my your transition thread.

Again, just to keep the language clear, that thread was solely about srs. Transition is a multifaceted process and surgery is only one aspect of transition (and not a necessary one).

[Nirokun!]

In an earlier post I clarified "beyond casual conversation", which I think is what you're mostly describing. I was talking about the step from casual to romantic. Assuming it's already known is an interesting point, I'm not sure what it would take to make that assumption though? I would think it'd be hard to even drop hints at something like that, it's just not something most guys are thinking about honestly. I guess if you meet in a trans club and dude is just completely oblivious.

The heart of the issue is identification. The quote I commented on was basically saying "they're a woman, so why should they have to say anything". A trans woman can identify as a woman, and I can respect that while at the same time identifying them as trans rather then a woman.

Your clarification doesn't change my response, because my example (the "kink" conversation) still applies. Let's put this into a real life scenario, this happened to me. The guy I previously dated was into stuff I wasn't into (I would probably have tried if he had wanted a serious relationship, but he didn't). For the record, I approached his online dating ad, because I knew who he was from his information, but he didn't know who I was, and I was full-disclosure and we met up. Up to this point, he knew my status, but I didn't know his "kink" status. Was be being dishonest? I personally don't think so, but you might, had the situation been reversed and I had yet to disclose and "strung him along".

He waited until later to hint at it. He was open-minded and tried a lot of things. AFAIK he didn't have previous experience with transwomen, so I think he was curious and wanted to try it out on a casual-sex level. I guess I just didn't get that, and waited and waited for something that didn't end up happening. We were friends (he's fun) and I "met" my boyfriend and started dating him (we had met years before my transition, where I still passed and we spent time together, but his friends told him afterwards (I was vocal about being androgynous at the time). The guy before my bf later admitted to not knowing how to tell me he just wanted sex, and that he didn't want to hurt my feelings.

And I'm sure people will ask, so here you go~ the guy was into latex bodysuits (apparently you can paint it on?) and bondage.

FWIW, oftentimes men who are interested in transwomen can tell she's trans, and they look for it. I used to feel insecure about my appearance, that I looked manly, but my bf just never sees it. I don't worry about it too much anymore, it's not at the forefront of my mind, and it's wonderful.

[Eurell]

And up until a couple yrs ago, the only 2 sexes were M and F. my how things change.

Sorry, not sure what you're getting at lol

[NynJa]

Sorry, not sure what you're getting at lol

You're saying "trans is an adjective", and I'm saying "a couple years, the only two sexes were male and female" when now there are broader definitions of sexes on official identification documents (in certain countries)

[Aksannyi]

It's been a long longer than a couple of years, it may have only been a couple of years ago in your consciousness, but trans and non-binary people have existed a long time and just been expected to stifle it and conform.

[NynJa]

What the fuck aks?

there are broader definitions of sexes on official identification documents

Did you read? Seriously? Did you at all read that entire post?
Im pretty sure it wasnt even a year ago when (i think) one of the higher european countries (Finland or Sweden) adopted "trans" or "other" as an official sex for documents and others have followed suit.