Transgender Philosophy (Questions, Ideology)

[BaneTheBrawler]

Again, just to keep the language clear, that thread was solely about Sex Re-assignment Surgery. Transition is a multifaceted process and surgery is only one aspect of transition (and not a necessary one).

Took me way too long to figure out that acronym even knowing the context. My brain kept jumping to "serious"

srsly

[Melena]

Aks, he was never denying they don't exist. He was just pointing out that only recently governments are acknowledging it on legal documents.

[Eurell]

You're saying "trans is an adjective", and I'm saying "a couple years, the only two sexes were male and female" when now there are broader definitions of sexes on official identification documents (in certain countries)

Im confused though. It IS an adjective so whats anything else matter. To be more clear in my earlier example, Him saying he will identify someone as trans instead of female, would be like me saying I identify you as cis instead of male.

[Enkidu]

Your clarification doesn't change my response, because my example (the "kink" conversation) still applies. Let's put this into a real life scenario, this happened to me. The guy I previously dated was into stuff I wasn't into (I would probably have tried if he had wanted a serious relationship, but he didn't). For the record, I approached his online dating ad, because I knew who he was from his information, but he didn't know who I was, and I was full-disclosure and we met up. Up to this point, he knew my status, but I didn't know his "kink" status. Was be being dishonest? I personally don't think so, but you might, had the situation been reversed and I had yet to disclose and "strung him along".

Kinks are not absolutes, your (and I'm not trying to be offensive) sex at birth is absolute. And this is a deal breaker for many men who may even find you very attractive. It reminds me of an offensive-ish, yet related video.

Spoiler: show

I think a better example would be a married man, with no intentions of getting a divorce, starting a romantic relationship with someone who is unaware that he is married and would not be okay with it if she knew. This obviously happens all the time, far more often then a trans person hiding their identity in a romantic relationship I'm sure, but I was just pointing out that I don't think it's okay in either case.

Not related to your post: As for "trans" being an adjective, I'm not touching that argument again. If you don't understand the point of what I was saying, try harder. I don't view them as a woman, yet I respect their position enough to not view them as a man. If it makes you happy I could say "trans person" instead.

[Gredival]

Kinks are not absolutes, your (and I'm not trying to be offensive) sex at birth is absolute.

Granted. The accepted terminology though is "assigned sex at birth." That phrasing carries no implications beyond the genitalia at birth.

The phrasing may seem trivial, but is important to those affected because less accurate phrasings make inaccurate assertions about identity. It's the equivalent of describing homosexuality as a choice or a lifestyle.

And this is a deal breaker for many men who may even find you very attractive.

Definitely, but think of it like this. It's one of many situations where two rights are coming into conflict and we have to balance those rights.

Maybe a transgendered individual who doesn't disclose their assigned sex at birth is taking time, interest, etc. from a suitor that, if all cards were on the table, the suitor would not give. But that's generally trivial compared to the risk of violence the transgendered individual can incur if they disclose to the wrong sort of person.

It's information that, regardless of being a potential deal breaker, a person feels they need to guard until they know another person better. It's simply not the same as other potential deal breakers, say something like having a kid, etc. Ultimately the "right to know a deal breaker" matters much less than the "right to reasonable safety with a stranger."

I wish I could just put what i type through a gred filter.

My hourly rate is very reasonable.

[Nirokun!]

Kinks are not absolutes, your (and I'm not trying to be offensive) sex at birth is absolute. And this is a deal breaker for many men who may even find you very attractive.

I think a better example would be a married man, with no intentions of getting a divorce, starting a romantic relationship with someone who is unaware that he is married and would not be okay with it if she knew. This obviously happens all the time, far more often then a trans person hiding their identity in a romantic relationship I'm sure, but I was just pointing out that I don't think it's okay in either case.

I'm not sure if we'll come to an agreement on this. Kinks are not absolutes I guess, but neither is gender or attraction, people change. But I never argued that. I was addressing this:

The point is that it's insincere (not insecure?) to approach someone with romantic interest if they would not be interested had they known your genetics. The only reason to do such a thing is being deviant. Perhaps you should step back and realize I wasn't calling transgendered people deviant, but rather the act of knowingly deceiving someone who otherwise would have not put themselves in that situation.

I'm saying that, when dating, everyone puts their best foot forward. You don't get to filter who approaches you, nor do you get a neat profile for everyone you meet that includes every dating-related preference you would be interested in (maybe in online dating, sure). You learn more as long as both parties keep it going.

You might think it's the burden of the transwoman to disclose their history. I would argue that it's the burden of the man to disclose that he's not going to murder her if she's tells him she's trans, because that's generally the reason it's done. I mean, if we're really going to hold the worst perpetrator responsible here. (That's really harsh, and that's why there's subtlety and grace in these situations.)

This response has been difficult to write, and this is the second time I've written it. The first was too wordy, and this one is shorter and hopefully addresses your mindset about everyone's responsibilities when dating and meeting new people. If we were all better people, there would be no reason to hide things for fear of murder. >_>

[Nirokun!]

Page 2!

Certainly no one should be forced into a relationship with someone they don't want to be with. But if the only reason for that is because they are trans, sorry, but yes you are a transphobe.

I have to echo what others are saying here, I disagree with your statement. I feel urged to do so because I'm acting somewhat as a primary source of information in this thread. I feel the same kind of argument has arisen from race preferences when dating where someone isn't interested in Race A, not because of some stigma or stereotype about Race A, but because Race A doesn't get them excited. It's not racist if you just don't feel it, it's simply not your thing. The same with people not finding transfolk attractive. If they're otherwise respectful and cool, it's not transphobic to not be interested. It could be that they might be interested in a transgender person down the line, as people change and preferences can change, but at that time, with that person, they just weren't interested. Attraction is fickle like that.

I am assuming this in reference to "transgender" vs "transgendered."

But you do not get to set the terms of the nomenclature the rest of the forum uses. You want everyone here to drop the -ed off the word, give an argument for it besides the fact that you find it disrespectful.

However I suggest that you let it go because this discussion about semantics has been highly counterproductive. You are making mountains out of molehills, and it is notably aggravating to a number of posters who are trying to engage you on substantive grounds.

I'm not trying to rock the boat, but input was requested! I personally don't find the usage of "transgendered" as disrespectful, but afaik, it's not right. There is a large trans-population on youtube (I used to watch vlogs all the time, now just some of the time), and the lingo is fairly developed and settled (as much as it can be as the whole transgender umbrella evolves). It's hard to explain why, it feels like a native language and I'm trying to explain it to a non-native speaker:

MtF. Transgender Woman. Transwoman. Transfeminine.
FtM. Transgender Man. Transman. Transdude. Transmasculine.
Transgender individual.
Early transitioner.
Late transitioner.
I hope to start transition soon.
I have transitioned.
Transgender people face unique struggles.

I started transition at a community health clinic specializing in GLBT healthcare. My provider gave me a referral and I got the correspondence:

"Dr. _______, this transfemale patient had bottom surgery, and ________ (etc)."

/Page 2!

[Abandon]

After reading your reasons for thinking you're female on the inside, it's just hollow stuff to me. As has been mentioned liking traditionally "female" things does NOT mean you are female.

And by Aks definition on identity, that's justifying the existence of trans-race or trans-species stuff. Not that I give two shits about that because if some white dude identifies more as an Asian man, more power to him. I think it's dumb but that's my shit opinion. I look forward to the thread on trans-race surgeries etc. Oh, wait

I guess everyone who made fun of Michael Jackson for turning into a white man were being transphobic. Which is further fucked up because he became white due to the accident he had with that pepsi(or coke?) commercial he made in the 80's

nah

[Ksandra]

I feel urged to do so because I'm acting somewhat as a primary source of information in this thread.

Just in case you see this niro: hey is a mtf. Though seemed to definitely have a negative view on a lot of areas.

[Ksandra]

nah

People not using wikipedia at minimum astounds me sometimes.

[Nirokun!]

Just in case you see this niro: hey is a mtf. Though seemed to definitely have a negative view on a lot of areas.

I know, that's why I said that I was a primary source. hey is, too, but because our opinions differ, I wanted to give them the equal weight of our lived experiences.

[Ksandra]

I know, that's why I said that I was a primary source. hey is, too, but because our opinions differ, I wanted to give them the equal weight of our lived experiences.

Gotcha! Wasn't sure if you knew, 'cause I never see you post anymore!

[Nirokun!]

Gotcha! Wasn't sure if you knew, 'cause I never see you post anymore!

I have helpless mouths to feed in this house! x)

[BaneTheBrawler]

Niro, I think I mentioned in the OP, but I want to reiterate: You're under no obligations here. If you don't want to answer something, feel free to skip over it.

I do appreciate that you're taking time to respond, though. I always found your trans related posts to be educational and often entertaining.

[Enkidu]

Definitely, but think of it like this. It's one of many situations where two rights are coming into conflict and we have to balance those rights.

Maybe a transgendered individual who doesn't disclose their assigned sex at birth is taking time, interest, etc. from a suitor that, if all cards were on the table, the suitor would not give. But that's generally trivial compared to the risk of violence the transgendered individual can incur if they disclose to the wrong sort of person.

It's information that, regardless of being a potential deal breaker, a person feels they need to guard until they know another person better. It's simply not the same as other potential deal breakers, say something like having a kid, etc. Ultimately the "right to know a deal breaker" matters much less than the "right to reasonable safety with a stranger."

Ehh I think the problem here is just context. My initial post spelled out that I don't think a trangender person should have to disclose this sort of information in casual conversation, i.e. getting to know someone. My claim is that when attempting to move from casual to romantic, it should be made clear. I get that "approaching with romantic interest" is not clear, but within the context of my post just a few posts prior I think it's sound. I already pointed that out, yet it still seems as if it's being ignored.

Anyways I see little justification that starting a romantic relationship with someone would somehow make it safer to disclose that sort of information, if anything I think it would make it less safe. Though I don't think that this is what's being said anyways.

[Gredival]

I'm not trying to rock the boat, but input was requested! I personally don't find the usage of "transgendered" as disrespectful, but afaik, it's not right. There is a large trans-population on youtube (I used to watch vlogs all the time, now just some of the time), and the lingo is fairly developed and settled (as much as it can be as the whole transgender umbrella evolves). It's hard to explain why, it feels like a native language and I'm trying to explain it to a non-native speaker:

MtF. Transgender Woman. Transwoman. Transfeminine.
FtM. Transgender Man. Transman. Transdude. Transmasculine.
Transgender individual.
Early transitioner.
Late transitioner.
I hope to start transition soon.
I have transitioned.
Transgender people face unique struggles.

I started transition at a community health clinic specializing in GLBT healthcare. My provider gave me a referral and I got the correspondence:

"Dr. _______, this transfemale patient had bottom surgery, and ________ (etc)."

/Page 2!

It's been a while, but the argument about "transgender" vs "transgender" was about grammar vs. offensiveness.

One side argued that, via the rules of English, it was more appropriate to use -ed. That person presented support from a LBGT blog, written by a MTF author, about how the word was not offensive.

hey said that "trangendered" with an -ed was offensive in the same way that "colored" is offensive; it makes it appear as something "happened" to them.

The problem in the thread was that hey repeatedly refused to engage in discussions when she felt someone/something was disrespectful, treating it as discriminatory if people did not accept her being offended as sufficient reason to change their behavior.

I told hey that her being offended was insufficient for me to start infracting people in this case since the use of that language was a) obviously benign, and b) backed up with some sort of evidence. The discussion never progressed after that.

If people want to, the conversation may be worth having. I tend to think "transgendered" *sounds* more grammatical myself.

[Aksannyi]

Honestly, and what the hell do I know because I'm cis, but I think we should just use "trans" and not have to worry about it, tbh.

[Gokku]

I thought we couldn't use trans due to English making it an adjective? They really didn't think this terminology out....

[Aksannyi]

Trans and transgender are supposed to be adjectives. They're not supposed to be nouns. Not "a transgender" or "a trans" just "trans person" or "transgender person." Or to say, "She is trans." (Because that's still an adjective, like "She is white.")

Dear god please don't make me break out the fucking English teacher grammar lesson again.

[Eurell]

I thought we couldn't use trans due to English making it an adjective? They really didn't think this terminology out....

They thought it out fine lol, you're misunderstanding the conversation.