Transgender Philosophy (Questions, Ideology)

[Aksannyi]

Well, to be fair, I think hey is on timeout. Niro hasn't contributed to any of the recent transgender threads.

If there are other transgender people on BG, I'm not aware of it.

[Salodin]

(also known as cisplaining)

I fucking lost it

[Enkidu]

And what do you want them to say? They are a woman. I mean yes, it would be prudent to mention a penis before any sexual activity happens. But that doesn't mean that said person is not a woman. A transgender woman is well within her rights to identify herself as a woman, because that's what she is.

Colloquially it certainly depends on who they are talking too. It's absurd to believe that a transgendered person talking to a random male wouldn't understand that he probably has no interest in her after finding out she is a male (whether or not an operation took place). And that's the crux of the matter. Personally I would say a transgendered person should always explain their situation to someone they're interested in prior to anything more then casual conversation. It's both deviant and insincere otherwise.

[Vandalhart]

Colloquially it certainly depends on who they are talking too. It's absurd to believe that a transgendered person talking to a random male wouldn't understand that he probably has no interest in her after finding out she is a male (whether or not an operation took place). And that's the crux of the matter. Personally I would say a transgendered person should always explain their situation to someone they're interested in prior to anything more then casual conversation. It's both deviant and insincere otherwise.

I think the main point I'm going to make here, is that she isn't male. That's what Aksannyi was trying to point out earlier. just because the individual has "male" sexual organs doesn't make them male. She is a woman, and the sexual organs she has belong to her, and therefore are female sexual organs regardless of whether they are considered male sexual organs by society.

Not to speak for you Aksannyi, let me know if I'm way off base.

[Aksannyi]

Colloquially it certainly depends on who they are talking too. It's absurd to believe that a transgendered person talking to a random male wouldn't understand that he probably has no interest in her after finding out she is a male (whether or not an operation took place). And that's the crux of the matter. Personally I would say a transgendered person should always explain their situation to someone they're interested in prior to anything more then casual conversation. It's both deviant and insincere otherwise.

But she's not a male. She's a female. And saying as much is ignorant.

So you're telling me that even if a transgender woman has undergone gender reassignment surgery and she has a functional vagina that can do everything but procreate, she's under obligation to tell you? Why? Because it's going to fundamentally change the way you view her? If anything, she is under no obligation to tell you that she used to have a penis, only that she cannot reproduce with you just in case that's something you were looking for out of a relationship.

"Deviant" and "insecure?"

Okay, I'm confused about "deviant." How is it deviant? She's being who she is. I really don't understand where you are going with that.

And insecure? Well yeah. Because people like you will be ignorant about it, and call her "male" and "deviant." You'll stop talking to her or giving her a chance. She's under no obligation to tell you either until you're about to get sexual (especially if she has a penis) or when she feels comfortable. Insecure? Yeah, because people still murder transgender people at a high rate, simply out of fear or misunderstanding.

I don't think if you're going on a first date with someone that you have any obligation to tell them jackshit. Maybe it'd be easier to weed out the ones who are going to be shitty about it, but certainly you're under no obligation. And she's not going to tell you "I used to be a man," because she never was one.

EDIT: Yes, Vandal.

[Blubbartron]

And she's not going to tell you "I used to be a man," because she never was one.

I will really never understand the kind of mental gymnastics required to think/say something like this. The entire point of transition is that you literally are outwardly male (assuming MtF going forward for simplicity). There is a point in transition where transgendered people will stop portraying themselves as the sex they were born as, and start portraying themselves as the gender they identify with. They may have never identified as being a "man" (as a gender, not a sex), but they still use the men's restroom to prevent a whole hell of a lot of hassle, from men and women alike, until they permanently transition to female in everyday life.

There's a serious problem with trying to follow this political correctness bible of not hurting feelings. When you start to say things as irrational as "a penis is female genitalia if it belongs to a transgendered woman" you damage your own argument to people who value thinking rationally (e.g. the average male). I personally can't take anyone serious who says such a thing, as its plainly ridiculous.

[Enkidu]

Seriously? What would you like instead of "male" to vocalize their original sex? Should we get down and dirty with heterogametic? You can't really argue against that one...

The point is that it's insincere (not insecure?) to approach someone with romantic interest if they would not be interested had they known your genetics. The only reason to do such a thing is being deviant. Perhaps you should step back and realize I wasn't calling transgendered people deviant, but rather the act of knowingly deceiving someone who otherwise would have not put themselves in that situation.

It's like you're so involved with the idea that a transgendered woman should just be accepted as a woman that you forget that it can psychologically traumatic for a cisgender man to find out a romantic interest is not actually a cisgender female.

[hey]

Also, I'm concerned about the overwhelming amount of cis voices in the transgender thread and wish there was more trans participation.

Don't worry, i'm back.

My understanding so far is that gender is a societal creation.

Some believe this, but i really do not think so. To me, it does not really make sense for trans people to be so prevelant if it was, especially with most of them in some way knowing they are trans from such a young age. I am not sure if i know any trans people who really believe this, to be honest. Regardless though, it doesn't really matter, and to me at least, isn't worth discussing in depth. No matter what the source of gender is, it does cause physical differences, ie that can be found with brain scans.

It seems to me that transgender is getting confused with transsexual. Which, I can see someone who is transexual would know because they are transgender to begin with. Though, if they are transsexual they would not be transgender, because they weren't the gender they were born to be. That just broke my brain a little

The only real difference between transgender and transsexual is transition, though I'm not sure at which point that shifts - I think it's after surgery. Hey might be able to answer that one better.

It really depends on who you ask. Some trans people will say they are not transsexual after srs because they have changed their sex to match their gender. Personally i would say that i have always been transgender, and have been transsexual since i started taking hormones. Other people may think differently though. I always prefer to simply use the word trans, unless i know someone specifically prefers something else, because it is the most inclusive, and is least likely to upset anyone.

That isn't why it would be hard, lol. Part of looking at a person, and my brain saying "woman" is what parts are on them. If a woman undresses and has a dick, I'm not going to recoil because I'm homophobic or I'm thinking "hmm well society has always told if balls touch it's gay..." - it's going to be because I am surprised and no longer attracted to them sexually, because I no longer see them as the sex I am attracted to.

Well, you should get over that, because it is not always the case. And this is quite a transphobic attitude.

If you're not interested in anal and vaginal sex is important to you, then I don't see how it's homophobic to not someone who is unable to fulfill your desires.

It is not.

While that's technically and politically correct

It is correct, full stop. In no way is it wrong to say a trans woman with a penis is a woman. Your false assumption does not change reality.

I would say your sexual organs largely dictate if you are a woman, so perhaps the disconnect is that I define "woman" according to sex while you are defining it according to gender. Does that make sense?

Read http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21...he-categories/

Outside of transgendered topics, when the word woman is used, it is assumed that the sex is just that.

Okay, you do that, but don't be surprised when your assumption turns out to be wrong.

This discussion only came about because some one gave the example of a transgendered woman not disclosing such until after the pants came off, and why when some one says they're a woman people automatically assume there's a vagina between them legs. Being upset or angry is not homophobic, that's not insensitive, that's miscommunication because some one forgot to mention an important fact about themselves when the the assumption around the world is that if you carry yourself as a woman then people expect woman anatomy as well.

No, you forgot to ask. If a specific detail is important to you, then you need to let that be known to any potential partners. And you are right, it is not homophobic, it is transphobic.

transgendered

Yo, i thought max already explained it, but there's no "ed" there. Just transgender. Or more simply, trans.

I think the main point I'm going to make here, is that she isn't male. That's what Aksannyi was trying to point out earlier. just because the individual has "male" sexual organs doesn't make them male. She is a woman, and the sexual organs she has belong to her, and therefore are female sexual organs regardless of whether they are considered male sexual organs by society.

Not to speak for you Aksannyi, let me know if I'm way off base.

Right.

If there are other transgender people on BG, I'm not aware of it.

There are many others. Not surprisingly, most do not want that to be known around here.

I will really never understand the kind of mental gymnastics required to think/say something like this. The entire point of transition is that you literally are outwardly male (assuming MtF going forward for simplicity). There is a point in transition where transgendered people will stop portraying themselves as the sex they were born as, and start portraying themselves as the gender they identify with. They may have never identified as being a "man" (as a gender, not a sex), but they still use the men's restroom to prevent a whole hell of a lot of hassle, from men and women alike, until they permanently transition to female in everyday life.

There's a serious problem with trying to follow this political correctness bible of not hurting feelings. When you start to say things as irrational as "a penis is female genitalia if it belongs to a transgendered woman" you damage your own argument to people who value thinking rationally (e.g. the average male). I personally can't take anyone serious who says such a thing, as its plainly ridiculous.

Presenting as a man does not make you a man.

[hey]

Seriously? What would you like instead of "male" to vocalize their original sex? Should we get down and dirty with heterogametic? You can't really argue against that one...

The point is that it's insincere (not insecure?) to approach someone with romantic interest if they would not be interested had they known your genetics. The only reason to do such a thing is being deviant. Perhaps you should step back and realize I wasn't calling transgendered people deviant, but rather the act of knowingly deceiving someone who otherwise would have not put themselves in that situation.

It's like you're so involved with the idea that a transgendered woman should just be accepted as a woman that you forget that it can psychologically traumatic for a cisgender man to find out a romantic interest is not actually a cisgender female.

Am i the only one who has a hard time taking someone seriously when they say "transgendered woman" and "cisgender man" in the same sentence?

Sorry in advance if my existence is traumatic for you.

[Aksannyi]

I will really never understand the kind of mental gymnastics required to think/say something like this. The entire point of transition is that you literally are outwardly male (assuming MtF going forward for simplicity). There is a point in transition where transgendered people will stop portraying themselves as the sex they were born as, and start portraying themselves as the gender they identify with. They may have never identified as being a "man" (as a gender, not a sex), but they still use the men's restroom to prevent a whole hell of a lot of hassle, from men and women alike, until they permanently transition to female in everyday life.

There's a serious problem with trying to follow this political correctness bible of not hurting feelings. When you start to say things as irrational as "a penis is female genitalia if it belongs to a transgendered woman" you damage your own argument to people who value thinking rationally (e.g. the average male). I personally can't take anyone serious who says such a thing, as its plainly ridiculous.

As ridiculous as it may be to you, that's how it is, and if you were to ask someone who is transgender, you would find that they do not ever call themselves the sex they were born as except before recognizing that they're transgender.

The public restroom thing is the subject of debate, and that's up to the individual. But you're saying "outwardly male" appearance for a MtF. That's kind of the exact opposite of how they want to be seen. As a woman, they want to be seen as women. I'd say that they try to portray themselves (your words) as the gender they are as soon as they can. Look at Leelah Alcorn, for example - she was not allowed to grow out her hair or start HRT, but she did what she could to appear outwardly feminine in places where she knew she wouldn't be treated badly. At home, however, she had to act and appear male, because her family was not accepting of who she was. But that doesn't change the fact that she was a girl.

Nothing I'm saying is irrational. It is all true. I recognize there is resistance to changing the way people think and or speak to people, but nothing I'm saying is inherently untrue. Generally people don't talk about transgender issues. Transgender people are extremely invisible in society right now. Eventually the goal is that we don't need to keep saying it, people just inherently understand it. Some boys have vaginas. Some girls have penises.

[Enkidu]

Am i the only one who has a hard time taking someone seriously when they say "transgendered woman" and "cisgender man" in the same sentence?

Sorry in advance if my existence is traumatic for you.

Would you like to address the point instead of nitpicking? Also, your existence is not traumatic for me, perhaps you should actually read the post.

[Aksannyi]

It's like you're so involved with the idea that a transgendered woman should just be accepted as a woman that you forget that it can psychologically traumatic for a cisgender man to find out a romantic interest is not actually a cisgender female.

Boo hoo?

Sorry, but it's pretty laughable for you to even say that, considering transgender people commit suicide at one of the highest rates, and that violence against transgender people is also very, very high, because of their traumatic experiences dealing with people like you who will not accept them and will continue to hammer home that "well that's what you WERE." If someone is a woman, you call them a woman. It's not that hard. If you have a cognitive disconnect with someone who is transgender so much that you would consider it traumatic to learn that a woman is a woman, then I'm sorry but I'm not exactly feeling sorry for you.

[Vandalhart]

It's like you're so involved with the idea that a transgendered woman should just be accepted as a woman that you forget that it can psychologically traumatic for a cisgender man to find out a romantic interest is not actually a cisgender female.

As it would be to the transgender woman who got that far into a start up relationship and get get dropped by potential mate because they saw they had a penis.

That being said, the responsibility is not on one party or another. Communication would have to take place, and I'm getting the idea that it's something that should be brought up instead of just assumed in the future.

[Aksannyi]

There are many others. Not surprisingly, most do not want that to be known around here.

I figured as much.

To any of those people, feel free to PM me if you just want to talk or need an outlet - I will not out you or otherwise betray your confidence. I figured that goes without saying, but I'm just going to go ahead and say it.

[Cream Soda]

And insecure? Well yeah. Because people like you will be ignorant about it, and call her "male" and "deviant." You'll stop talking to her or giving her a chance.

Not directly related to your post, but not sure why anyone would want to be with someone who isn't going to accept them for who they are. "If I exclude this information, maybe he'll like me" isn't really a great mindset to walk in with for someone you're trying to be in a relationship with (though if you want a hookup, I guess that works)

[hey]

Not directly related to your post, but not sure why anyone would want to be with someone who isn't going to accept them for who they are. "If I exclude this information, maybe he'll like me" isn't really a great mindset to walk in with for someone you're trying to be in a relationship with (though if you want a hookup, I guess that works)

Because it is dangerous to disclose to people unless you're sure they can accept it. For you, we may waste a bit of time going on a few dates just to realize it will never work, and that might be annoying, but for us, it is a matter of not getting ourselves murdered. Sorry but if i have to inconvenience you for that, i will. That being said, i would never take my pants off in front of someone who did not already know. I might however give someone a blow job without telling them. There really is no need to in that case.

[Blubbartron]

Nothing I'm saying is irrational. It is all true. I recognize there is resistance to changing the way people think and or speak to people, but nothing I'm saying is inherently untrue. Generally people don't talk about transgender issues. Transgender people are extremely invisible in society right now. Eventually the goal is that we don't need to keep saying it, people just inherently understand it. Some boys have vaginas. Some girls have penises.

Repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true.

I'm having a hard time understanding why some people on this forum seem to be unable or unwilling to distinguish between sex and gender. They are different things, and trying to simplify situations to "that woman has a penis" is ignoring that fact seemingly intentionally. Is it so unusual to think that maybe sexual attraction has two components - sex (biology/genitalia) and gender (appearance/mannerisms)? That seems like the most logically accurate perspective. For instance, I'm attracted to feminine mannerisms and appearance, but if I'm going to make the sexy tiem, I want to be fondling tits and fucking pussy. A transgendered woman who has fully completed transition and is completely passable is attractive to me and I'd be willing to have a relationship with one, but I also have no desire to pass on my genes. To a person who does care about that, it doesn't make them bigoted to not be interested in transgendered females. They simply have their own priorities in mate selection.

This might be more relevant to the sexuality thread, but it seems like one of the issues around here is people expecting transgendered women to be treated exactly the same as cisgendered women for the purposes of relationships. Unfortunately, you just can't expect that to happen. Ever. Trans women and cis women are different, and while that doesn't make trans women sub-human or anything ridiculous like that, it does mean that you don't get to lambaste someone who doesn't prefer that type of person.

[hey]

Okay, but really, if you are not willing to use the appropriate terminology, can you please leave this thread? I do not think it is too much to ask to show a little respect for the way people wish to be referred to.

Here's a few tips: Transgender is an adjective, not a noun. "Transgenders" does not make sense. Instead you want transgender people. "Transgendered" also does not make sense, you simply want transgender. In general, the best option is simply "trans". This is a word that includes transsexual, transgender, genderqueer, genderfluid, etc etc people, should generally be preferred, unless you specifically wish to talk about a specific subset of trans people.

[Enkidu]

Boo hoo?

Sorry, but it's pretty laughable for you to even say that, considering transgender people commit suicide at one of the highest rates, and that violence against transgender people is also very, very high, because of their traumatic experiences dealing with people like you who will not accept them and will continue to hammer home that "well that's what you WERE." If someone is a woman, you call them a woman. It's not that hard. If you have a cognitive disconnect with someone who is transgender so much that you would consider it traumatic to learn that a woman is a woman, then I'm sorry but I'm not exactly feeling sorry for you.

If you don't understand why it could be traumatic for a man to discover that a woman he is with was born male, perhaps you have a disconnect with reality. Also stop with the strawmen. I have no problem with trans people, I simply have a problem with acts of deviance and/or deception to further ones own ideals in any regard.

I have no problem with trans people being safe and determining whether or not someone would be receptive to their circumstance, but again there's no need for it to go beyond casual conversation. In my opinion the onus is on the trans person to approach the topic as they make up such a small percentage of the population; it's simply absurd to expect every cis person to approach the subject...

[hey]

If you don't understand why it could be traumatic for a man to discover that a woman he is with was born male, perhaps you have a disconnect with reality. Also stop with the strawmen. I have no problem with trans people, I simply have a problem with acts of deviance and/or deception to further ones own ideals in any regard.

I have no problem with trans people being safe and determining whether or not someone would be receptive to their circumstance, but again there's no need for it to go beyond casual conversation. In my opinion the onus is on the trans person to approach the topic as they make up such a small percentage of the population; it's simply absurd to expect every cis person to approach the subject...

Why is it that any time a trans person does anything without explaining their entire life's history, they are doing it only to further their ideals? Is it so hard to believe maybe they are just living their lives the same as everyone else?