Transgender Philosophy (Questions, Ideology)

[kuronosan]

Except you aren't really citing any legit reason why other than pandering.

Suppose Bruce Jenner won. Suppose he won because he overcame cancer, and never became Caitlyn Jenner.

Would he deserve it any less than she does now?

[ColenzoRidesAgain]

[Yuri-G]

pandering isn't a legitimate reason to give out an award, and more than it was when Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize. and no, why would Bruce deserve an award for beating cancer? lots of people do that. it takes courage, but it's not deserving of an award in and of itself.

tell me what Caitlyn has done to deserve this award other than coming out. what charities has she donated her time and money to? how many transgendered youth has she mentored? how many high schools has she visited, how many speeches has she given? how many foundations for the support of transgendered youth has she given her time to? how many scholarship funds for transgendered youth has she started?

she came out of the closet. good for her. that does take courage. she also waited how many years to do it? do we deduct courage points for the time it took her to own up to who she is? how many transgendered teens who committed suicide could have used her courage twenty years ago when it was far more controversial to be trans?

yeah, she's brave. but she's not brave enough to deserve an award. it's celebrity pandering, and at the very least it's insulting to people who have dedicated their whole lives to LGBT awareness. as I said in my first post, the only possible legitimate reason for this award is to raise awareness as a whole - and that, at least, I can understand a little, but in that case it's not Caitlyn's award at all is it?

[Darus Grey]

I always kind of wanted to know how transgender men and women would go about choosing a new name, it's actually something I wanted to ask hey but never got to. Do they consult with their family? Do they try on a few names and see what they feel most comfortable with? It's just something I'm curious about.

I've never considered changing my name - well, my last name, obviously, since I've already done so - but I just wonder what kind of process it is. I guess it probably varies by individual. Someone might have felt like their name should be X since childhood, while others have wrestled with it and fought with it for months or even years. It seems like it'd be a difficult process but it also must be so liberating to finally be reborn, essentially.

As someone who has changed their first name, I can only say from my experiences that I never identified with my name, always disliked it, but most importantly hated it compared to the rest of my family. 8 siblings, parents, grandparents, etc, all with very Germanic names and me with some more trendy(at the time) Irish name always felt incredibly wrong and I wondered from an early age why they made that choice without any good answer. So as an adult I made the decision to change it pretty much right away to something more in line with my family.

I never consulted with anyone about my choice of name itself, it's something I thought about a lot and never was able to settle on one for awhile even after I made a decision to change it, I was just playing a Fire Emblem game and they introduced a character and I just immediately knew that was the name I wanted.

I'm not Trans but I at least have some empathy for the "feeling something about yourself isn't right" aspect from that experience.

[Thunder]

pandering isn't a legitimate reason to give out an award, and more than it was when Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize. and no, why would Bruce deserve an award for beating cancer? lots of people do that. it takes courage, but it's not deserving of an award in and of itself.

tell me what Caitlyn has done to deserve this award other than coming out. what charities has she donated her time and money to? how many transgendered youth has she mentored? how many high schools has she visited, how many speeches has she given? how many foundations for the support of transgendered youth has she given her time to? how many scholarship funds for transgendered youth has she started?

she came out of the closet. good for her. that does take courage. she also waited how many years to do it? do we deduct courage points for the time it took her to own up to who she is? how many transgendered teens who committed suicide could have used her courage twenty years ago when it was far more controversial to be trans?

yeah, she's brave. but she's not brave enough to deserve an award. it's celebrity pandering, and at the very least it's insulting to people who have dedicated their whole lives to LGBT awareness. as I said in my first post, the only possible legitimate reason for this award is to raise awareness as a whole - and that, at least, I can understand a little, but in that case it's not Caitlyn's award at all is it?

I don't think you're looking at this the right way. The award people don't give a shit about your individual feelings of being slighted by witnessing an undeserving award. They capitalized on a situation for an agenda they have. Considering their agenda (raise positive transgender awareness + become more critically acclaimed itself) they succeeded more than anyone else. This has probably been the more effective change in society in recent times. Just look at the closing of highways, "lay downs"(or whatever they're called), and the riot/protests we all know for the black community, or the shaming of anime shirts, glorifying false rape accusations, and condemning popular video games for the feminism side. All of that is super unsuccessful. This award is a strategic move, it's smart, and it's effective.

Why are you not ok with someone winning an "undeserving" award? It makes like 0 difference in her life.. and it doesn't hurt yours any. Do you feel it's hurting the feelings of people who have actually went through pain? I don't think there's a single other person on this planet than can win this award and have as much buzz surrounding it as Jenner has, and in that view, she deserves it more than everyone else

The award to Jenner is basically worthless. Even if it came with a million dollars like the nobel does - it wouldn't change her life at all. And even if it did! why's it upset you if it's done for a good cause...?

Edit: very basically - the award's description is "most courageous person" and that's a load of shit. The "regular" people need to fall for that. This award's actual job is to be spreading an agenda, if it weren't strategic in its placings nobody would recognize it. Hell, I bet most people who would be able to say Jenner won the courage award wouldn't be able to say the name of the award itself - compare that to the oscars (everyone knows the name, nobody knows the winners - relatively). There's a difference between the two awards in terms of recognizably and popularity which influences how you can go about your business. Oscars can go out to "the best x" in cinema and glorify good cinema. If this award tried that with courage now it'd basically be killing itself. It NEEDS to be strategic in its placements for its own good AND if it manages to do some great world changes then we should all be happy. Except for the people stuck under the guise that this was about finding the most brave person and that jenner winning is a slight on THEIR bravery

[Yuri-G]

so basically you just said what I was saying. this is about an agenda, not about Caitlyn. I'm sorry if that didn't come across right; I'm in a pissy mood today and my original post sounded a like more vitriolic than I meant it to be. but yeah, I think we agree that this is far more about the movement than about Caitlyn - which bugs me, even though it does good as well.

as for why I give a shit, that's a long and complicated topic, but it basically comes down to the notion that celebrities are more worthy than regular people. transgendered people live in pain for generations, no one gives a shit. rich famous trangendered woman who happens to have a daughter with a fat ass, what? let's reward that bitch! that's why I give a shit. that and I'm cranky today.

[archibaldcrane]

Kim Kardashian isn't Caitlyn's daughter...


To reiterate, it's an award for athletes. Bruce Jenner is one of the most famous decathletes in American history.

[Yuri-G]

yes, these are things I know.

if you'd like to craft a well thought-out response like Thunder I'd be happy to read it and reply. I'm not always perfect and I try to keep my opinions malleable. if you're just going to keep saying "it's an award for athletes, duh" then you're wasting your breath... err, your fingers anyway.

[Thunder]

I said it's been about an agenda before you came into the thread. That's not what your main argument is, this:

as for why I give a shit, that's a long and complicated topic, but it basically comes down to the notion that celebrities are more worthy than regular people. transgendered people live in pain for generations, no one gives a shit. rich famous trangendered woman who happens to have a daughter with a fat ass, what? let's reward that bitch! that's why I give a shit. that and I'm cranky today.

is

hell yes celebrities are more worthy than regular people of things like this. We're talking about an award, remember - not food, water, shelter, a happy life, etc. Fame is valuable, and I urge you not to make the mistake of being angrier than you already might be by wishing things were the way they are "supposed" to be vs the way things are. I'd recommend accepting it, living with it, and even using it to your advantage because the alternative is like sitting around kicking and screaming because the sky shouldn't be blue

let's reward that bitch! that's why I give a shit.

bro. You're upset someone got something you think they shouldn't have gotten. That's kindergarten drama. It's not even a reward to her. Jenner's net worth is 100 mil and has fame coming out the ass, it doesn't change her life at all. The award benefited more from this than Jenner did, and the transgender community as a whole even more than that. I really see no reason to be upset. If they chose someone you'd be happy with you probably wouldn't have even heard of them winning. Understand this isn't about finding the most brave, but furthering the name of the award and transgender acceptance

btw, Jenner/kardashians aren't famous just because they've got fat asses or are pretty. It takes some skillful lobbying, self marketing, decision making, and convincing to get to where they are. The kardashian mom isn't an idiot

[archibaldcrane]

I mean for fucks sake Michael Sam won last year and he's not even good enough to play in the NFL.

It's hard to argue that Caitlyn's transition isn't a moment that "transcends sports" which is exactly what the qualification for the award is.

[Ksandra]

rich famous trangendered woman who happens to have a daughter with a fat ass, what?

This statement doesn't make any sense.

Can you please learn who Caitlyn actually is before bashing her?

[Yuri-G]

I'd rather not learn more about the dynamics of the Kardashian/Jenner clan than I have to, to be honest. if you're going to latch onto the fact that I don't know who fathered which child in that whole mess, please feel free.

I agree that they're famous for more reasons than just being pretty and stupid. believe me, I know Kris is a genius. Kim... I don't know, she's either really smart or is just mommy's best bet. I'd guess the latter.

and Thunder, I can get as pissed as I want about things like this, but really most of that anger was just my mood. I still think it's absolutely ridiculous and it glorifies celebrity while demeaning the actual struggles of transgendered people, but if it does some good in the process then I'm all for it. and thank you for at least taking a civil tone with me when my tone wasn't quite so civil, rather than being arrogant and flippant like a couple of other posters - no one's perfect, we all have our days, and if we just talk shit and make other people feel stupid for their opinions then we're not really getting anywhere. I appreciate you.

archi, I don't know why you're up my ass today but feel free. I've always thought you were hot anyway, you can come on in.

[Green]

FIRE

[kuronosan]

Wait, what? This award is about athletes.

Caitlyn is an athlete.

This isn't about the Kardashians. Fuck sake.

[Thunder]

while demeaning the actual struggles of transgendered people

I don't think it actually demeans the struggles of transgendered people and you're just gonna hurt yourself, emotionally, if you keep seeing the world through this kind of view

I had the same bone to pick with maz and hey in the feminism threads a few times earlier. Fighting for the rights of the disenfranchised isn't about "what's right" and standing for your position 100% unyieldingly. You can't fight stigma with "common sense" because common sense is already against you. If you try, you're fucking yourself worse than the highway closures did for the ferguson stuff and shirtgate did for feminism. Those people are literally perpetuating their own unhappiness because they're denying how the world works and trying to get things done in spite of that... and being in a deep enough delusion to still think strategies like that "help". Caitlyn Jenner winning the award is 100% a smart move in terms of transgender politics (and the award's own politics.. so no surprise Jenner won and was THE best person to choose in 2015)

Any transgender person who is upset at Caitlyn Jenner winning the award vs a transgender person who lived a tough life doesn't understand politics/sociology enough to know what's good for a group of people

Much of the people championing transgender, gay, female, lesbian, black, minority, etc acceptance doesn't understand politics/sociology enough to make positive change, and that sucks.. but it's the way it is, and real change won't come to those groups of people until intelligent strategies outweigh all of the loud idiots thinking they're helping

thanks for the compliments btw, much love<3

edit: damn, talk about getting destroyed by mob mentality. He even admitted to being out of line in the last post lol. Just think how this interaction would have gone if everyone responded with a little more civility/humility at least towards the poster they're responding to

[BaneTheBrawler]

I do not take kindly to willful ignorance. If you're gonna shit up my board, at least get the basic facts of whatever youre shitting about.

[NynJa]

I mean for fucks sake Michael Sam won last year and he's not even good enough to play in the NFL.

It's hard to argue that Caitlyn's transition isn't a moment that "transcends sports" which is exactly what the qualification for the award is.

Except Sam is an openly gay aspiring NFL player, Jenner hasnt been an athlete for how many years now?

[archibaldcrane]

My point was that giving the award to the trans person of questionable current athlete status isn't exactly a shock given that they just gave it to a gay person of questionable current athlete status.

[archibaldcrane]

And of course, Arthur Ashe's relevance as a former athlete, despite being retired for 12 years at the point he announced it, was crucial for his bringing awareness to people with HIV.

[NynJa]

My point was that giving the award to the trans person of questionable current athlete status isn't exactly a shock given that they just gave it to a gay person of questionable current athlete status.

Michael Sam is an active current athlete, whens the last time Jenner did anything athletic?!? 1976...i wasnt even born