Transgender Philosophy (Questions, Ideology)

[guartz]

Western liberty is complicated. We hold parents accountable if they don't provide or seek life saving medical intervention, don't we? But that's a hard case to make probably.
On the other hand, for every parent who withholds this treatment because "what will Gladys from church think", there is a parent who will perform this treatment on a normal child because they want support from the fake internet friends. No treatment until legal adult seems like the solution that offers least amount of harm.

[Eurell]

On the other hand, for every parent who withholds this treatment because "what will Gladys from church think", there is a parent who will perform this treatment on a normal child because they want support from the fake internet friends.

Would love a source on this. I don't deny there are dumb parents that would push for unneeded stuff (though I believe the number to be far lower than the people denying treatment for bigoted reasons), but how do they get all the doctors to agree? Isn't therapy required in most cases before any treatment takes place?

[Cichy]

Once you're over 18 do w/e the fuck you want I just have a hard time buying that you should put your kids on puberty blockers. There's so little known about them and there's plenty of negative things that is not being discussed. Low bone density, poor bone development, infertility, and low IQ are just some of the effects this treatment can have. Also, there's plenty of kids who grow out of gender dysphoria once they get past their teen years.

[Ksandra]

Would love a source on this. I don't deny there are dumb parents that would push for unneeded stuff (though I believe the number to be far lower than the people denying treatment for bigoted reasons), but how do they get all the doctors to agree? Isn't therapy required in most cases before any treatment takes place?

This is why I say therapy for transitioning until they are 18. That way if they've been in therapy for it for years and still want to do it, that suggests it's not just a phase and/or parent influence.

edit: Also that means they're an adult, and adults should get to do w/e the fuck they want in this situation.

[Gredival]

The role of physicians is paramount in this no matter what. They are ultimately going to be the ones who determine if the child truly understands the process and if this is what they really want or if it is just confusion and hormones and poor teenager impulse control.

Obviously if we are putting laws and regulations in place to empower minors to receive and seek treatment against parental consent, mental health care providers are going to be used as the on site safe guard just like when parental consent is overruled for life saving treatment.

Given that what would we need to do to make the healthcare system more capable of handling proper diagnosis and treatment? Require certification regarding diagnosis of trans dysphoria in order for a provider to be able to overrule parental consent and tie that certification to training?

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[Rhyis.]

Isn't therapy required in most cases before any treatment takes place?

You would certainly hope so.

[Gredival]

Once you're over 18 do w/e the fuck you want I just have a hard time buying that you should put your kids on puberty blockers. There's so little known about them and there's plenty of negative things that is not being discussed. Low bone density, poor bone development, infertility, and low IQ are just some of the effects this treatment can have. Also, there's plenty of kids who grow out of gender dysphoria once they get past their teen years.

This has to be weighed against the impact of permanent body dysphoria that results when a trans person goes through puberty and cannot pass because of the effects.

I think if the risks and side effects are explained and a physician believes the child is competent enough to make a decision, this is a voluntary assumption of risk.

The alternative of course is that instead of puberty blockers they can undergo HRT and have the puberty for their identified gender. But we are scared of that because it's irreversible.

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[Cichy]

I think if the risks and side effects are explained and a physician believes the child is competent enough to make a decision, this is a voluntary assumption of risk.

I'm having hard time with this. Children and teenagers are all morons who are driven by emotion and are incapable of grasping full repercussions of their actions. Do some living, dating, and fucking before you make this type of decision.

[zoobernut]

I'm having hard time with this. Children and teenagers are all morons who are driven by emotion and are incapable of grasping full repercussions of their actions. Do some living, dating, and fucking before you make this type of decision.

This description is pretty accurate for a good portion of the adult populous as well but we still let them make decisions.

[Eurell]

I'm having hard time with this. Children and teenagers are all morons who are driven by emotion and are incapable of grasping full repercussions of their actions. Do some living, dating, and fucking before you make this type of decision.

All of that is pretty hard to do when your brain is telling you your body is the wrong sex

[archibaldcrane]

I'm having hard time with this. Children and teenagers are all morons who are driven by emotion and are incapable of grasping full repercussions of their actions. Do some living, dating, and fucking before you make this type of decision.

There's a choice either way - you choose to go through puberty or you choose to block it. Either decision has serious repercussions, there's no "don't make a choice" option here.

[Cichy]

There's a choice either way - you choose to go through puberty or you choose to block it. Either decision has serious repercussions, there's no "don't make a choice" option here.

It's not like if you transition at an early age from a man to a woman you will be able to have children. You may have some cosmetic differences because you will take estrogen earlier but that's about it. Seems to me like doing so has way more negative impact.

[Cichy]

All of that is pretty hard to do when your brain is telling you your body is the wrong sex

I still don't get how this is different from people with body dismorphia who think their arm does not belong to their body and want to chop it off.

[archibaldcrane]

ok if that didn't do it for you then how about

telling transpeople that they should have sex as their birth sex before deciding whether to transition is wildly offensive and you're an asshole for suggesting it

[Andalusian girls]

I still don't get how this is different from people with body dismorphia who think their arm does not belong to their body and want to chop it off.

if you're going to use clinical psychology terms you should probably be aware of modern clinical psychology. transsexualism, or as American psychology calls it gender dysphoria (previously gender identity disorder), is considered a medical condition in the DSM-V AND ICD-10 (respectively the American and {printout of the ICD-10 code range F01-F99 covering mental, behavioral, and neurodevelopmental disorders is an internationally utilized diagnostic tool of Biblical essence} Bibles of mental illness diagnostics) but is a separate condition from body dysmorphic disorder, and itself is no longer considered a disorder.

BDD is primarily an anxiety disorder with mild underpinnings of delusion that causes individuals to obsess over a distorted self-image, one out of whack with any objective appraisal and independent of the actual physical state of the individual. there has been a mild push of late to reclassify anorexia nervosa as a subtype of body dysmorphia and for purposes of illustration it exemplifies the most salient feature of BDD. how skinny the individual is or will become is irrelevant to the discomfort the individual feels as a result of the disorder. you can see the contrast with transgender individuals who generally do not desire to get more male or female than any human being could ever become, but rather simply align their external features with their internal makeup.

most pertinently contrasted with the internal sources of distress for anorexia nervosa or body dysmorphic disorder it is now widely accepted that the distress of gender dysphoria is not an intrinsic part of being transgender but is the result of the remaining societal stigma that accompanies the condition. that is to say one can have gender dysphoria and be perfectly well-adjusted and healthy psychology whereas BDD and anorexia nervosa and all the like are by definition mental illnesses.

[Gredival]

It's not like if you transition at an early age from a man to a woman you will be able to have children. You may have some cosmetic differences because you will take estrogen earlier but that's about it. Seems to me like doing so has way more negative impact.

It's the difference between looking like a woman and looking like a man in drag which most of your potential partners will find unattractive. That has a massive effect on your own satisfaction with your body and external factors which will impact your happiness. Most people desire companionship and being unattractive impairs your ability to find a partner because it will severely limit the pool of people who would find you attractive, which feeds back into feeling like society doesn't accept you as a woman because physically they can see you were a man.

[Gredival]

ok if that didn't do it for you then how about

telling transpeople that they should have sex as their birth sex before deciding whether to transition is wildly offensive and you're an asshole for suggesting it

To elaborate on this, if you don't think that this doesn't seem like a fair assessment, imagine if a gay person told you that you don't really know if you are straight and that you should have some gay sex before saying you're straight because you can't know without the experience.

Yes some people experiment to find out that they are bisexual or gay. But others know very much so right away who they are attracted to.

[Dotsudoku]

I can assure you the gays will be happy to oblige

[kuronosan]

Everything Cichy has said so far has me seriously scratching my head.

Puberty blockers don't decrease bone density. They block puberty.

[Gredival]

Like I understand mental development takes off rapidly during the teenage years; even kids who are smart and bright in elementary school are limited in ways that below average teenagers are not. But AFAIK that does not have a relation to the physical developments of puberty it's just that brains are growing the same way that bodies do.