Transgender Philosophy (Questions, Ideology)

[Tyrath]

That's the point. What we speak of when we talk about transphobia when someone is inescapably caught up in sex-at-birth as the only reality of what a person's sex/gender is. It's not that they have masculine features that are unattractive to you. It's not that they have a penis, which is unappealing to you. It's literally that they were born male, and therefore are male.

Basically imagine that we had some magic spell that could completely, fully, one-hundred percent transform a person between sexes. You are even fully fertile after the fact, with fully operational genitalia. If, at this point, you still couldn't be attracted to a woman who underwent this magical spell because at one point in time this woman once had a penis (which was been magically and completely transformed), then you are transphobic.

Well your earlier examples made it seem like you were talking without the change between sexes. Like someone was transphobic because they identified someone with a penis as male even if that person self identified as a woman. If that isn't what you meant, then we are in agreement.

[Enkidu]

There's no need to invoke magic. I would just use a scenario of a trans person beginning hormone therapy before puberty and having a sex change operation whenever it's medically possible.

I disagree that it's transphobic to see XY females as unsuitable for a relationship. It's simply a consequence of the chemistry of attraction. Again, there's a difference between attraction and acceptance. Finding someone attractive and later finding them less attractive after learning more about them is pretty much the way the world works. It doesn't mean that you don't accept their lifestyle or that you fear them, it simply means it's not the lifestyle you want to live.

[Aksannyi]

I don't think anyone is arguing that not being physically attracted to a trans woman is transphobic inherently, as long as you still identify her and recognize her as a woman.

It's when you start to identify her as a male that it becomes transphobic.

[thetruepandagod]

It's when you start to identify her as a male that it becomes transphobic.

What if I mentally identified a female bodybuilder as male due to abundance of masculine traits. This clearly wouldn't be transphobic.

Let's say she looks like this. And in my head my gut reaction is to identify it as a man, where as outwardly I would acknowledge it is in fact a woman.

Spoiler: show

[Aksannyi]

Then you'd just be a jerk. I mean granted, I get that a lot of people don't find her attractive, but she's still a woman.

[thetruepandagod]

I might have edited before you read it, but am I a jerk for inwardly thinking that even though I am outwardly acknowledging her womanhood?

[Aksannyi]

I might have edited before you read it, but am I a jerk for inwardly thinking that even though I am outwardly acknowledging her womanhood?

You did, but the thing is, if you have a knee-jerk reaction to something, what matters is whether or not you correct that line of thinking. If your first instinct is to call that woman or any trans woman a man but you correct yourself, "no, me, that's a woman!" then I personally would not say that you're a jerk and/or transphobic. People often have snap reactions to what they see, so that's not terribly unusual. You may have had that with a certain race, or with homosexuals, or people with a mohawk, etc. You might inwardly think, "weirdo" but then internally correct yourself to "nah, dude's just expressing himself," (obviously going with the mohawk thing) then you're fine.

It's when you look at someone, think something extremely negative about them, and then continue to think that way. But if you think something like, "Oh shit, big scary black dude. What a n**," and then continue to think about "n** gonna just act like n**, what a piece of shit" well then you're racist, even if you never outwardly say or express anything. Even if you never outwardly express hatred toward a certain group, your thoughts and internalized feelings toward them determine how you feel about that group.

Does that make sense? I apologize for my shitty analogies and for any offense, it was meant as an example.

[thetruepandagod]

I would have just accepted nigs gon nig.

You did, but the thing is, if you have a knee-jerk reaction to something, what matters is whether or not you correct that line of thinking.

It's when you look at someone, think something extremely negative about them, and then continue to think that way. Even if you never outwardly express hatred toward a certain group, your thoughts and internalized feelings toward them determine how you feel about that group.

So in my mind if I see a penis internalize that and consider that a person a man, but still refer to her as a she and accept the gender identity that they want while making no judgement calls on their personhood,lifestyle etc. I am still transphobic?

It's when you look at someone, think something extremely negative about them, and then continue to think that way.

this is the part i am specifically having trouble with, i can understand from a trans persons point of view that if i mentally see them as a man this could be a huge negative. But what I am trying to convey i guess is that if i in my mind consider them a man yet let this have no bearing on our interaction other than sexual is this still transphobia/bigotry? Akin to let's say i will always see a black man as a black man yet not let it dictate my relationship with them in the same way that i will always see a fat person as fat yet still treat them as i would any other.

[Aksannyi]

Lol. I personally don't like to use any part of that word, I absolutely don't have the privilege to use it.

[Tyrath]

So in my mind if I see a penis internalize that and consider that a person a man, but still refer to her as a she and accept the gender identity that they want while making no judgement calls on their personhood,lifestyle etc. I am still transphobic?


this is the part i am specifically having trouble with, i can understand from a trans persons point of view that if i mentally see them as a man this could be a huge negative. But what I am trying to convey i guess is that if i in my mind consider them a man yet let this have no bearing on our interaction other than sexual is this still transphobia/bigotry? Akin to let's say i will always see a black man as a black man yet not let it dictate my relationship with them in the same way that i will always see a fat person as fat yet still treat them as i would any other.

I think the thread Kuya started about Liberals vs Far right is very relevant here. The PC movement is ready to label you just because you have thoughts that might differ from their ideals. In my opinion, you can think whatever you want but as long as you acknowledge a person with the gender identity they choose and you don't treat them any different or unfairly. If you treat them respectfully and never do anything to hurt them, how can you be a transphobe?

[Gredival]

So in my mind if I see a penis internalize that and consider that a person a man, but still refer to her as a she and accept the gender identity that they want while making no judgement calls on their personhood,lifestyle etc. I am still transphobic?

this is the part i am specifically having trouble with, i can understand from a trans persons point of view that if i mentally see them as a man this could be a huge negative. But what I am trying to convey i guess is that if i in my mind consider them a man yet let this have no bearing on our interaction other than sexual is this still transphobia/bigotry?

There is a subtle nuance between seeing a penis and identifying that as a masculine characteristic you are not attracted to, and seeing penis and identifying the owner as a man, irrespective of other circumstances.

A straight man, by definition, should be attracted to femininity not masculinity. Therefore, by default, you are not physically attracted to male genitalia. So if what is happening is that what is in her pants is killing your attraction to her otherwise feminine features, then no.

This test will make it clearer.

Do you, in your mind, identify a post-op, MtF transgender woman who is completely and convincingly feminine with no masculine traits as a man or as a woman? Let's assume (because I do not know enough about gender reassignment surgery) that because she is post-op, you are otherwise completely unable to distinguish her from a natural female-at-birth woman, even if nude and you thoroughly inspected her body. You could not tell she was male-at-birth unless she told you.

Is she a man in your mind? I'm not asking if you would feel weird, or if it would give you hesitation. The only issue is if the knowledge that she was at some point biologically male, regardless of the fact there is absolutely zero evidence of that remaining, compels you to regard her as a man. Not how you address her, not in how you relate to her, just what you think. If one of your friends were sleeping with her, would you think in your own head that he was sleeping with a man or would you think he was sleeping with a woman -- a post-op MtF transsexual woman, but a woman nonetheless.

If you say she's a man in your mind, then I think you are mildly "transphobic."

Now I'd stress I don't think that necessarily means you are a prejudicial bigot who commits hate crimes, treats people unfairly/disrespectfully, etc. Phobias/prejudices exist in degrees. All this means you psychologically identify people by their assigned sex at birth, regardless of their current expressed sex/gender (no matter how convincing). You're be the equivalent of someone who, whenever it matters, proves a commitment to civil rights and racial equality, but (for whatever reason) subconsciously tenses up more when you pass a black man on the street at 3 A.M. than when you pass a white man. You are using some otherwise irrelevant information to draw other conclusions about the person with no correlation.

[Tyrath]

Gredival, to answer your question, no I do not see that post-op person as a man. But I still don't understand this part that you're trying to convey.:

seeing penis and identifying the owner as a man, irrespective of other circumstances.

The post-op thing doesn't apply there because the person in question hasn't actually changed their biological sex. Biologically they are still male. I'm not understanding how you are making the leap from considering someone who is post-op as a woman to considering someone who still has a penis a woman. Genderwise sure, they identify as a woman and I will accept them as such. But biologically they are still male and I don't understand how you can fault someone for identifying someone with a penis as male.

[Aksannyi]

I think the thread Kuya started about Liberals vs Far right is very relevant here. The PC movement is ready to label you just because you have thoughts that might differ from their ideals. In my opinion, you can think whatever you want but as long as you acknowledge a person with the gender identity they choose and you don't treat them any different or unfairly. If you treat them respectfully and never do anything to hurt them, how can you be a transphobe?

I believe personally that if you internalized something like hatred for a certain race, sexuality, gender, etc., that you are internally bigoted, yes. Even if you don't intentionally act toward someone, we all have subtle actions we make that we don't always recognize. It's hard for me to really explain the concept of internalized bigotry, and I've been sitting here trying to for a few minutes. Other people have explained it so much better than I have and while I understand it, I don't know how to explain it so that you guys will understand it.

The thing is, sometimes, outwardly being inclusive and/or non-bigoted doesn't always mean that you're entirely 100% inclusive/non-bigoted, even with subtle actions or words.

[Tyrath]

I believe personally that if you internalized something like hatred for a certain race, sexuality, gender, etc., that you are internally bigoted, yes. Even if you don't intentionally act toward someone, we all have subtle actions we make that we don't always recognize. It's hard for me to really explain the concept of internalized bigotry, and I've been sitting here trying to for a few minutes. Other people have explained it so much better than I have and while I understand it, I don't know how to explain it so that you guys will understand it.

The thing is, sometimes, outwardly being inclusive and/or non-bigoted doesn't always mean that you're entirely 100% inclusive/non-bigoted, even with subtle actions or words.

I didn't say anything about internalizing hatred though. We're talking about disagreement in their viewpoint. You can view someone as differently from what they identify as and that is fine. You're not a jerk long as you respect their wishes and treat them as they wish to be treated. If you harbor hatred towards them over how they identify, then it's a completely different story.

[hey]

Gredival, to answer your question, no I do not see that post-op person as a man. But I still don't understand this part that you're trying to convey.:



The post-op thing doesn't apply there because the person in question hasn't actually changed their biological sex. Biologically they are still male. I'm not understanding how you are making the leap from considering someone who is post-op as a woman to considering someone who still has a penis a woman. Genderwise sure, they identify as a woman and I will accept them as such. But biologically they are still male and I don't understand how you can fault someone for identifying someone with a penis as male.

There is more to biological sex than penises and vaginas, your refusal to accept that is what makes you transphobic. Ie, a man who loses his penis in some accident is still biologically male. A trans person, pre or post-op does not fit the criteria 100% for either sex. Which brings us back to this: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21...he-categories/. It's long, but not as long as the frighteningly long scroll bar suggests (it's 95% comments). Read it.

[Tyrath]

There is more to biological sex than penises and vaginas, your refusal to accept that is what makes you transphobic. Ie, a man who loses his penis in some accident is still biologically male.

See, here we go. Someone doesn't agree or doesn't understand so let's attack them and call them names. And people wonder why others shy away from these causes. This whole "you're with us or against us" mentality is detrimental to your cause.

Biological sex is in fact determined by your reproductive organs, both external and internal. If a man loses his penis in an accident, he doesn't magically grow a vagina. He will still have anatomical differences on the inside compared to that of a woman. As I've said a million times, this doesn't have a bearing on your gender at all. Your gender can be whatever you identify as and that's perfectly okay. If someone gets sex reassignment surgery then I have no problems acknowledging their change of sex as well. But it doesn't happen by losing your penis in an accident.

[Aksannyi]

I didn't say anything about internalizing hatred though. We're talking about disagreement in their viewpoint. You can view someone as differently from what they identify as and that is fine. You're not a jerk long as you respect their wishes and treat them as they wish to be treated. If you harbor hatred towards them over how they identify, then it's a completely different story.

Is it though? If you disagree with how they identify - say trans woman and you view her as a man because she has a penis - then isn't that pretty hateful? You can't really respect them to their face but disrespect them behind their back. Just because militant Christians claim to tolerate homosexuals and are polite when interacting with them but secretly think "well you're going to hell," that's still homophobic and bigoted.

I mean just being nice to them and using correct pronouns because they ask you, well there could be any reasons behind doing that. You may not want to ask but be internally thinking, "okay dude whatever" or you could be just like, "well we both work here and I don't want to argue over this shit but I don't see how Bridget (just gonna use that name) can seriously ask me to call it (and yes, IT, because I'm trying to act like a transphobe) a woman," or perhaps you could think, "nope, got a dick, it's a dude, even though you've agreed to kindly call that person by their requested pronouns. You can accept use pronouns and outwardly "accept" them but still inwardly harbor really transphobic thoughts.

[hey]

See, here we go. Someone doesn't agree or doesn't understand so let's attack them and call them names.

lol

Biological sex is in fact determined by your reproductive organs, both external and internal. If a man loses his penis in an accident, he doesn't magically grow a vagina. He will still have anatomical differences on the inside compared to that of a woman.

Really? Just a minute ago you said a post-op trans woman is biologically a woman. Even though she does not have a uterus, or various other female specific organs. So... which is it? Also, how about cis women who have their uterous/other organs removed for medical reasons? It is not nearly as simple as you are suggesting. Also: intersex people.

As I've said a million times, this doesn't have a bearing on your gender at all.

I am not talking about gender.

[Aksannyi]

Biological sex is in fact determined by your reproductive organs, both external and internal. If a man loses his penis in an accident, he doesn't magically grow a vagina. He will still have anatomical differences on the inside compared to that of a woman. As I've said a million times, this doesn't have a bearing on your gender at all. Your gender can be whatever you identify as and that's perfectly okay. If someone gets sex reassignment surgery then I have no problems acknowledging their change of sex as well. But it doesn't happen by losing your penis in an accident.

Okay, but a trans woman who has been on HRT for years but still has a penis is biologically more female than male. There are hormones - primarily estrogen for women and testosterone for men - and these have a really large bearing on biological sex even before a sexual reassignment surgery takes place.

[Tyrath]

Is it though? If you disagree with how they identify - say trans woman and you view her as a man because she has a penis - then isn't that pretty hateful? You can't really respect them to their face but disrespect them behind their back.

Um...no it isn't. Having an opposing viewpoint is NOT hateful. Respect isn't agreeing with someone without question. Respect comes from how you treat them DESPITE what you might think.

Just because militant Christians claim to tolerate homosexuals and are polite when interacting with them but secretly think "well you're going to hell," that's still homophobic and bigoted.

Terrible analogy. Just because you might not agree with someone's viewpoint of identity doesn't mean you think they are eternally damned or deserve any sort of torture. You literally just don't agree. Everything else is fine.

I mean just being nice to them and using correct pronouns because they ask you, well there could be any reasons behind doing that. You may not want to ask but be internally thinking, "okay dude whatever" or you could be just like, "well we both work here and I don't want to argue over this shit but I don't see how Bridget (just gonna use that name) can seriously ask me to call it (and yes, IT, because I'm trying to act like a transphobe) a woman," or perhaps you could think, "nope, got a dick, it's a dude, even though you've agreed to kindly call that person by their requested pronouns. You can accept use pronouns and outwardly "accept" them but still inwardly harbor really transphobic thoughts.

It's not a transphobic thought if you already accept them for who they are and treat them with every dignity as you would anyone else.

A phobia is a range of antagonistic feelings towards whatever the subject might be. Simply not agreeing about the terminology does not mean that you are in any way antagonistic or hateful towards the subject matter at hand, in this case trans people.