2016 USA Presidential election thread I: The warm-up

[notorious bum]

Those of you who dig Abby Martin can watch her discuss the debates after it airs at 11PM EST on the Telesur network
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/new...1012-0028.html

for alternative to CNN vomit

[Acevalefor]

The point was that CNN analysts declared the winner before the info could even be parsed and fact checked. They then spent the next 20 minutes talking about how every candidate helped Hillary win the debate.

[Sho]

I think folks could vote in a white male Jewish socialist, if we got a black Muslim Kenyan in office. You're reading into too much of CNN's talking points. I heard they were framing the Bernie email zinger as a Hilldog win lol

I try to see it objectively actually. CNN talking points are somewhat objective as well.

I'm not against Sanders at all. There's just no way he'll be able to pander to the middle as easily with some of his views. And lets say he did get in as President, just how many people in the center and on the right he could compromise with honestly? Lets not forget that we are currently position where Pres is Dem and Congress is GOP -- something that won't change until the 2018 cycle (hopefully). Just by virtue of who he is would stroke the flames of more hyper right fervor, something the nation does not need right now or ever.

I think Sanders is better as an idea and a vision, but Clinton or Biden is better as the reality. Sanders definitely set the table up for 2016, if nothing else -- much like how Trump did for the GOP.

[Cantih]

Wait, a correction.
The person to gain the most out of this is Anderson Cooper, slappin' his big ol' dick over everything.

[Sho]

Webb was all like "pls let me talk thx."

[Acevalefor]

Webb was all like "pls let me talk thx."

I am glad they did not let him talk much. He had nothing but anecdotes and personal appeals.

[notorious bum]

I try to see it objectively actually. I'm not against Sanders at all. There's just no way he'll be able to pander to the middle as easily with some of his views. And lets say he did get in as President, just how many people in the center and on the right he could compromise with honestly? Lets not forget that we are currently position where Pres is Dem and Congress is GOP -- something that won't change until hopefully the 2018 cycle. Just by virtue of who he is would stroke the flames of more hyper right fervor, something the nation does not need right now or ever.

I think Sanders is better as an idea and a vision, but Clinton or Biden is better as the reality. Sanders definitely set the table up for 2016, if nothing else -- much like how Trump did for the GOP.

Hilldog is saying populist things, she ain't keeping any promises when she's elected. I agree mostly with Sanders in office, shit will be stalemate as per usual. We can't afford, as a crumbling Empire, to do anything BUT radical reform, especially in regards to honest infrastructure investment, taxing the rich, and socializing healthcare, though.

The cynic in me says "yup, we fucked either way, B."
The optimist in me says "Sanders is on some People's Champ shit, let's do this!"

[Sho]

I am glad they did not let him talk much. He had nothing but anecdotes and personal appeals.

Agreed. The Vietnam shtick was tired and out of date since the early 90s. No disrespect to our troops.

[BerenTebogo]

He was the only one who had an even remotely relevant response to climate change though, as hilarious as that is.

[Acevalefor]

Hilldog is saying populist things, she ain't keeping any promises when she's elected. I agree mostly with Sanders in office, shit will be stalemate as per usual. We can't afford, as a crumbling Empire, to do anything BUT radical reform, especially in regards to honest infrastructure investment, taxing the rich, and socializing healthcare, though.

The cynic in me says "yup, we fucked either way, B."
The optimist in me says "Sanders is on some People's Champ shit, let's do this!"

Cynically speaking myself, We cannot expect any sort of reform, let alone radical reform until we see the fall of the Freedom Caucus. That could take a while and may not happen in time to see any reform change.

[Sho]

Hilldog is saying populist things, she ain't keeping any promises when she's elected. I agree mostly with Sanders in office, shit will be stalemate as per usual. We can't afford, as a crumbling Empire, to do anything BUT radical reform, especially in regards to honest infrastructure investment, taxing the rich, and socializing healthcare, though.

The cynic in me says "yup, we fucked either way, B."
The optimist in me says "Sanders is on some People's Champ shit, let's do this!"

Oh I don't disagree at all on her populism. In fact it was one of the talking points we had in BG chat -- you could almost taste the focus group testing on her lips as she spoke on some things, while sidestepping the weed question. It was really awkward and sad because you knew it wasn't from the heart at all.

This is essentially why instead of talking about ideals, I made it more of an argument on who is better situated to pander to the middle and right, considering the current quagmire the House is in. I no longer believe in radical reform -- we aren't going to burn anything down and rebuild, regardless of how people feel on the extreme left or extreme right. Someone from either side will have to come in and be legit pragmatist and do some next level under table dealing, like Clinton 42 or Bush 41.

[Sho]

He was the only one who had an even remotely relevant response to climate change though, as hilarious as that is.

Now you know no one else was gonna touch that "nuclear" word, lol.

[BerenTebogo]

Now you know no one else was gonna touch that "nuclear" word, lol.

I know, which is dumb as shit. Webb was an assbucket but at least he had his head on for that.

Don't get to throw around statements like "CC is the biggest danger we face as a people!" Without being willing to do something about it. Bern and Hill completely waffled on the subject imo, which really annoyed me.

Dudes coming out going "you're damn right I'm a socialist! You're damn right black lives matter!" But won't give an actual intelligent response about CC. Already pissed off everyone in the country who isn't your target demographic, what would it hurt?

Edit: O'Malley's response wasn't awful, but "clean electricity" is just a buzzword and being totally on "clean electricity" is not feasible.

[Marootsoobutsu]

Hillary won that debate by a landslide. Not necessarily because she hit any home runs (she didn't), but because she didn't NEED to. None of these folks are a threat to her-- her biggest threat is her saying something wrong, or a truly murderous scandal coming up. Sanders, meanwhile, didn't ever completely destroy her, and even his "stop talking about the emails" thing was a win for Hillary-- it's relevant now; it likely won't be all that relevant after the primaries. This is the point where it could hurt her, and he's made it clear he's not gonna hit on it. Cool-- good for him. I think Sanders is likely the most ethical person from either party who's running. But NOT talking about it helps Hillary, not him. It's definitely a win for the Democrats vs. the Republicans, but not so much for Sanders vs. Clinton, which is what really matters right now.

[Sho]

I know, which is dumb as shit. Webb was an assbucket but at least he had his head on for that.

Don't get to throw around statements like "CC is the biggest danger we face as a people!" Without being willing to do something about it. Bern and Hill completely waffled on the subject imo, which really annoyed me.

Dudes coming out going "you're damn right I'm a socialist! You're damn right black lives matter!" But won't give an actual intelligent response about CC. Already pissed off everyone in the country who isn't your target demographic, what would it hurt?

Edit: O'Malley's response wasn't awful, but "clean electricity" is just a buzzword and being totally on "clean electricity" is not feasible.

I think it's just a pretty populist ideal to throw around without much research into alternatives.

Clinton made it about talking about having China come aboard with a deal in 2009, while Bernie Sanders basically told the world what most people with common sense already knew. Both were distractions. I think the reason why we agree on the CC topic being stupid is because we both know that the evolution of combating Climate Change is fully moving over to an energy source that has been well documented as safe -- nuclear energy. The negative stigma over nuclear anything loom forever, I'm afraid.

I think electricity can be feasible, but it'll depend on how much funding will go into creating powerful fuel cells.

[notorious bum]

I'm going to steal my comrades' answers on the debate in that Clinton at best tied Bernie (polling shows otherwise, but I'll play along), which means that Bernie gains, considering she has almost double the name ID as Bernie.

Any other analysis on the debates is pure fanboyism if anyone thinks either came away with a "landslide". Your boy Cooper got his shine on, though.

[kuronosan]

Hillary won the debate because like all politicians she says what the people want to hear.

[BerenTebogo]

Electricity is feasible, but without getting too much off on a tangent, we are a significant number of years, and trillions of dollars in R&D, from being there. We already know nuclear works well, is safe, is best currently available. I agree about stigma, but when we have someone like Bern on stage who is shitting on stigma as is, may as well go all in imo.

For "clean electricity" to be a thing the efficiency of solar cells, especially thin film cells, would need to be dramatically risen and they would need to be on p. Much every building in the country. Wind farm size would need to grow by a large exponential factor. And wave capture R&D would need to advance about 20 years and be instantaneously implemented. There is not one lone engineering solution to a coal-free electricity source. Even most (all?) nuclear plants uses some degree of coal power. Like I said, not really the place for it, just was disappointed.

[Sho]

Electricity is feasible, but without getting too much off on a tangent, we are a significant number of years, and trillions of dollars in R&D, from being there. We already know nuclear works well, is safe, is best currently available. I agree about stigma, but when we have someone like Bern on stage who is shitting on stigma as is, may as well go all in imo.

For "clean electricity" to be a thing the efficiency of solar cells, especially thin film cells, would need to be dramatically risen and they would need to be on p. Much every building in the country. Wind farm size would need to grow by a large exponential factor. And wave capture R&D would need to advance about 20 years and be instantaneously implemented. There is not one lone engineering solution to a coal-free electricity source. Even most (all?) nuclear plants uses some degree of coal power. Like I said, not really the place for it, just was disappointed.

Agreed on all points. I may not be a man of science like you, but I share all of your sentiments concerning the answers and rhetoric the debaters came with. It was weak all around to clamor over CC but not come strong with an alternative outside of Webb. I just looked at Webb's record, and he's been pretty consistent on his thoughts about nuclear energy.

[notorious bum]

I don't think that alternative energy script has changed for the past 10 years.