2016 USA Presidential election thread I: The warm-up

[kuronosan]

And many of the current liberals will be conservatives within the next 18 years. Y'all are thinking like the Hippies thought, and they did less in ten years of protests and activism than Cronkite did in 30 seconds.

What are you even talking about every time you post?

And news flash, JF, more people convert to atheism every year (especially after college) because they start to see through the bullshit that is organized religion.

You would make a good politician though. You're really good at sounding smart while making up bullshit.

And holy shit at you thinking these debts are payable.

You are so out of touch with society it makes me wonder if you went to a parochial school and left straight into a four wall office with no windows.

[Gredival]

Having a kids is definitely a big one. Something an older gentleman once told me was to delay having kids as long as possible because once you do, you'll become the scared-est shit in the world. Your every decision will be examined through the lens of your children and it wouldn't be until they left the nest that you're be willing to take big risks again.

Now of course that doesn't mean everyone becomes conservative, but it does explain how you get overprotective soccer moms that want to slap warnings on everything and anti-vaxxers.

On the other hand, it means there is a reliable way to cater to these people. Young people with crushing student loan debt aren't the only ones who need to worry about college costs for instance.

[Marootsoobutsu]

What are you even talking about every time you post?

And news flash, JF, more people convert to atheism every year (especially after college) because they start to see through the bullshit that is organized religion.

You would make a good politician though. You're really good at sounding smart while making up bullshit.

And holy shit at you thinking these debts are payable.

You are so out of touch with society it makes me wonder if you went to a parochial school and left straight into a four wall office with no windows.

It's taken about 6 years, but the Mrs. and I have paid off 80k in student loans (70 hers, 10 mine), on 25k (starting joint) to 50k/year household income. It's not easy, and we've got about 20k of hers left to go, but it's been worth it to watch each month's required payment go down a bit-- and that's with enormous medical debt along the way from the Mrs. many health problems. The last 8~ years have been with a kid, the last 5~ with two. In one of the highest housing-to-income areas in the country (Seattle area). It's been an effort, but we've managed to make it work. And we have tithed (at least), the entire time. So don't say it's not payable. Within 7 years, barring personal catastrophe, we'll have it all plus our house paid off.


As for when people lose faith.... I mean, maybe there's been swaths of new research on this, but most people who leave the Church do do absolutely between adolescence and young adulthood. The kind of disillusionment you're talking about is comparatively rare, while those who come to the church in their late 30s on is kinda high. Sure, a lot of those are folks who were Christian-weren't-now-are-again. But the biggest reason you see Christianity declining in absolute numbers and percentage, is that current millenials and their predecessors haven't been coming back to the Church at the same rate their parents and grandparents did. It's more okay today to doubt or deny God, and so some of that social pressure in the PTA and workplace isn't there as much, particularly in the Northeast and the West Coast. And for the folks who are tired of the organized religion, even they don't tend to eschew Christianity; they eschew, well, a particular church, and go to another (largely), or stop going but retain faith (not a small chunk, either). Distaste for organized Christianity (I share that to a great extent), is not a rejection of Jesus. If you have something that goes against that, cool. If you really want, I'll go see if I can find the box that has my college notes and research on it, but it's been pretty darned consistent for most of the last 75~ years that the question's been asked. And that certainly jives with my experiences in the church for 20 years and my wife's for her entire life: you lose far, far, far more kids between high school and their first four years out of college than you do any time later, and you get a LOT more people (either back or for the first time), in middle age than you lose as a whole. All of the evidence I have seen supports that, but I'm open to seeing new studies, if you have some.

As for what I did, I went to the University of Washington (well, after community college, which was after a stint in the Marines, which was after a stint working in the Philippines at Smokey Mountain in Manila). For work, I've worked day care, tutoring, I was a teacher for two years before the state had layoffs and, well, I was first to go, I've been a janitor. Right now, I'm a writer (a very, very poorly paid writer), and I home school my kids. Other than BG, LoL, and the NFL, I still tutor, and I work with the local Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts, and I'm looking to help in the local food kitchen in my new town (just moved; before, the Mrs. and I would work with a nearby church that did food drives and meals daily). I'm pretty in touch with my community, and I'm pretty aware of a lot of the subpar choices that a lot of my peers in their mid-30s are making-- and that a lot of millenials are making now-- that are causing a lot of their headaches. There's a big difference between easy, and doable.


Edit: I should note, though, that while I have no expectation or desire for my wife's college debt to be forgiven or lowered or whatever, I do think we need to change things, because the current culture *is* discouraging and it's not healthy, insofar as the cost of college. If the goal is for the next generation to not have that kind of debt, great. If the goal is just to have your debt forgiven, not so great. I'm all on board with viewing college as infrastructure for the country every bit as much as a free way system or the like-- it's something that, while individuals may or may not use it, its use benefits the whole of us in very identifiable ways. But if it doesn't change? If it's something you value, it's still something you can do, however slowly, however much else you give up in the mean time.

[Serra]

Another Republican lawmaker says the House Select Committee on Benghazi is meant to go after the reputation of former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/14/politi...tee/index.html

[Tyche]

Anecdotal, but I became much more liberal after having four children than I was before having children.

And a lot of the anti-vaxxers were educated liberal upper-middle class SAHMs. Which makes sense when you think about it. Poor low income mothers are less likely to put in the time to research bullshit on the internet and more likely to just continue to do as their parents did.

[Churchill]

There's also been a few studies that showed women were more likely to believe in the supernatural, religion, ghosts, dumb shit like god and whatnot.

My Grandpa was churchgoing and seemed to want to be churchgoing, but I can't think of any other adult male in my family who went to church except when they were dragged there kicking and screaming. All of the women were the opposite - my mom doesn't go but I know she wants to. Her whole immediate family is atheist and I don't think she wants to get made fun of lol.

[Gredival]

Anecdotal, but I became much more liberal after having four children than I was before having children.

And a lot of the anti-vaxxers were educated liberal upper-middle class SAHMs. Which makes sense when you think about it. Poor low income mothers are less likely to put in the time to research bullshit on the internet and more likely to just continue to do as their parents did.

Wasn't implying anti-vaxxers aren't liberal - they generally are well off anti-science liberals (same wing as ppl who are anti-GMO). It's just that they are also almost unerringly parents who are trying to be vigilant about their children because SOMEONE HAS TO THINK OF THE CHILDREN. It's indicative of a single-minded focus on their children's welfare in the face of everything else. Often it ends up coinciding with an increasing concern for "family values"

[Waraji]

Essentially, I see Anti-Vaxers as the Tea Party of the Liberal Left Wing. Except a lot less organized.

[kuronosan]

80k in student loans on 50k income?

What state? With kids? What other obligations did you have?

Sorry, but I'm not a fan of one man success stories that leave out details.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Walkin' a fine line, Kuro.

Keep this line of inquiry respectful.

[Guyverarmor]

I honestly agree with Kuro...so he ain't the only one Bane.

[Guyverarmor]

I have multiple obligations ( bills, car payment ) plus house payment, and son who has been hospitalized each year due to lung issues. While I have been paying down my 126k student loans...not nearly close to paid off.

[Ardrial]

My 50k worth of student loans is down to 27k in 3.5ish years. I don't see how you can do 80k in 6. I even live with my parents so all I have to pay is my student loans, car, cell phone, and insurance. Of course I make less than 20k a year. YAY

[Eurell]

Never seen anything that shows anti vax leans more towards liberals before. If anything Ive only seen it as a problem nearly equal for both sides.

[kuronosan]

Look, I see nothing disrespectful about calling out someone who claims they made between 20-50k a year, had children, owned a house, has medical debt, and then attempts to convince everyone it's the gold standard for America let alone having all that and paying off 70k in 6 years. Not without help, and certainly not as a normative.

[notorious bum]

Muthafuckas tryin to claim they more frugal than me and CS on here. That's that shit I don't like.

[Sho]

I'd argue that what Bernie's polls show is that young people use the internet in their free time and old people do not.

Correct.

And the old people are the real "silent majority." They don't go to rallies, they don't do social media or the general Internet before it. They just go and vote. And the turn out exceptional numbers. However, I think 2016 and subsequent election cycles will be very interesting to see -- Millennials will start taking the reins fully by 2020, and we are the ones who use social media with great furvor.

I wouldn't know if the revolution is coming or not, but I do know that Social Media will become key within 4 or 5 more years. Sanders & Trump (and Obama before them) are taking advantage of a force that's still relatively new, but effective.

[Serra]

Those millenials you talk about are swayed by what's popular and are not a consistent voting block. Yes, they supported Obama in large numbers during the presidential election, but they don't care enough about politics to vote when a popular figure like Obama wasn't involved -- IE, during the midterms.

[Tyrath]

So then the key becomes making something like the midterms popular on social media. And I think its gonna happen eventually. Already been a big deal for the presidential election.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Look, I see nothing disrespectful about calling out someone who claims they made between 20-50k a year, had children, owned a house, has medical debt, and then attempts to convince everyone it's the gold standard for America let alone having all that and paying off 70k in 6 years. Not without help, and certainly not as a normative.

When it comes to civility/respect, I am generally more concerned with tone/language, though content does factor in. There are polite ways to ask unpleasant questions, though occasionally the question itself is offensive. Usually, when I post warnings in threads w/o infracting anyone, it's because I see things that have not yet developed into offenses, but could very easily. As I said, you're walking a fine line but so far you're okay.

Anyway, carry on.