2016 USA Presidential election thread I: The warm-up

[notorious bum]

This argument about how relevant the internet is has been going on for years, the goal post is always pushed forward for when we can finally start taking millennials/internets seriously. In regards to Bernie needing to copy Obama's success in energizing voters? He's surpassing Obama's '07 numbers in multiple categories, then you have the inconvenient truth about Bernie's own success in transforming Vermont's voter turnout numbers from something like 30% voter turnout to over 70%. Vermont wasn't a progressive state before he arrived, either.

[Marootsoobutsu]

80k in student loans on 50k income?

What state? With kids? What other obligations did you have?

Sorry, but I'm not a fan of one man success stories that leave out details.

Details, spoilered because long content and I am never brief:

Spoiler: show

Washington state. We had medical debt following her heart surgeries and bilateral adrenalectomes, but other than standard living expenses (gas, food, rent, utilities, health insurance, life insurance, renter's insurance), we didn't have any-- we have never had a credit card balance for more than two months, and we have never paid more than 2k for a car, which we paid for with cash up front.

But, our food budget is about 1/2 the typical American family's (lots and lots of home-made stuff, from bread to soup stock to home-grown tomatoes, basil, rosemary, etc... it takes about an average of 30 minutes total prep time per weekday and another half-hour cooking, and about two hours prep and an hour cooking on weekends-- something anyone COULD do, but it does need to be a priority). We walk almost everywhere rather than drive to save on gas. We use the library. We haven't had cable since the 2nd year of our marriage. We go to, on average, one movie in the theaters every two years, and our dates are almost always under $30 for the night, and usually under $10-- we hit up free nights at museums, picnics at a local park we haven't been to before, things like that. The only vacation we've had in that time was when I graduated college, and we slowed our debt payment to its minimums for about a year (we took the kids down to Disneyland, and visited my in-their-90s-grandparents after we found out my grandfather had the early stages of Alzheimers).

With kids, we shop almost exclusively for them at thrift stores. Once we had a second kid, I stopped working (I couldn't get a job that would cover child care we were comfortable with; needed about $15/hour in this area to cover child care for two kids, plus increased gas and other expenses of working, real and typically associated), and have been homeschooling (all of my student loan debt was for childcare while I was finishing my degree).

We use TracPhone for cell service, and make heavy use of the internet (pretty much our one big constant indulgence), to talk whenever possible, so the minutes stretch pretty far out. We keep the temperature down in our place (usually 65), and make use of sweaters and such very heavily-- our utility bills are lower than the average in our area by about $20/month for a family our size.

The only other obligation we've had is our tithe, 10% of the gross. About 1/4 of that goes to our church, the remainder goes to various charities locally and internationally (part supports continuing work with folks I met in the Philippines who are educating the homeless there and providing food, clothes, and jobs; my wife helps fund a literacy program in Mexico; we both support local food and clothing charities in Seattle).

I should note, my wife grew up as a missionary kid, and as I said, I spent time at Smokey Mountain in Manila (for those who don't know, it was a massive garbage dump that was home to about 80,000 people, just outside Manila in the Philippines). We both grew up extremely poor, and with all I've said, we honestly are living better than we did growing up, and a LOT better than we have seen many people living first-hand. In America, we're kinda different-- our entertainment budget has been under $70/month for the vast majority of our marriage (it got bumped to $80 when we got Netflix). For Christmas and the holidays in general, we spend less than $300 total, and it was under $100 before we had kids.

I don't agree with Dave Ramsey on everything, though my wife is a huge fan... but a lot of his stuff really does help. We pay cash for almost EVERYTHING. I price things out at the grocery store before I go, I clip coupons, we haven't been to a restaurant in 5 years. We go over our budget every month. Whenever we get unexpected money (birthday presents, bonus or overtime at work, whatever), it goes straight to paying off a debt. And it's been hard at times-- I would imagine it would be much harder for folks who have NOT lived like we have in the past, and with every bit of our debt that we get paid completely off, it's really tempting to slow down the payments, and indulge a little more. But, so far, we haven't. Our savings aren't all that much (we have 3 months expenses right now), and we haven't put to retirement yet. But, ALL of our financial obligations should be cleaned out, other than monthly living expenses, within 7 years (less, if my side-writing pays off more at any point or if she continues to get raises).

Right now, we're paying just under $1075/month toward our student loan debts, about 12900/year. We've been doing that pretty consistently for the last 6 years. We finished her medical debts (about $10k), in the third year. We're paying a little less now (our mortgage is higher than our rent was, and now we have water/sewer/garbage, and other expenses of home ownership, so it's down to about $800/month). We should have everything but the house paid off in the next two years, and the house within 5-7 years after that (7 if we get no more income, 5 if our timelines on added income work out).

That's a lot of personal information and details; parse it out if you want to. It's entirely doable, though, if you're willing to skimp and throw everything at it. But I'm looking forward to having about 1k total monthly expenses in 7 years, and having $2.3k/month+ to save for retirement, kids college, and having fun without the stress. And I will be among the first to admit that budgeting to the extent we have is a skill that definitely needs to be taught-- my wife and I both grew up in similar households (no credit card debt for either of our families, ever; cash for almost everything; eat-at-home), and we're both completely on board with getting this debt paid off. Neither of us are afraid of numbers, which helps a lot. We both have experience as bookkeepers, and so keeping track of every dollar is a skill that we have very well developed.


And, like I said, I would love to see the expected cost of college go down. My wife and I took our debt on knowingly, and we are going to pay it off. That's just the way it's gotta be for us. But I *do* agree that college is an expense that should be societal, not individual, because its benefits are largely societal as well. It would be great to know that the $50k/child we'll have set aside will be able to go toward a down payment on a home instead of tuition. I'd love for my kids to not have to go through 17 years to get 100% debt free. I'd absolutely love it, and I do think that it would be better for everyone involved if that weren't the expectation. I'd also like home-ec to be a thing that's required in schools-- the basics on how easy it is to prepare healthy, inexpensive meals at home, how you can prep things the night before, how wonderful things like crock pots are for helping save money, how to budget for a household, showing just how much interest adds to debt, things like that would do more for more people to prepare them for life than just about any other class could. And maybe it's because I work with and hang out with poor people a lot more than middle class/rich people, but a lot of those kinds of lessons are things that I see turn people's lives around, as soon as they embrace it.

But to say that you CAN'T do it is kinda misleading. You can. You just really, really have to want to get out from under it,and you have to be willing to sacrifice to make it a thing that happens, and you do need the education on how you can do it.

[Tyche]

How the hell do you guys go through undergrad with so much god damned debt?

[Sho]

Those millenials you talk about are swayed by what's popular and are not a consistent voting block. Yes, they supported Obama in large numbers during the presidential election, but they don't care enough about politics to vote when a popular figure like Obama wasn't involved -- IE, during the midterms.

Yeah, which is why I made the distinction between them and the actual silent majority that people have been buzzwording all over the place. However, as social media takes more precedence, I think you'll see a big influence on midterms as well.

[Marootsoobutsu]

How the hell do you guys go through undergrad with so much god damned debt?

I had almost none; my wife did 4 years of private school, living in dorms and food plan. She pretty much regards it as her worst mistake. But it's not terribly uncommon, either, and it's ballooning pretty quickly.

[Acevalefor]

Details, spoilered because long content and I am never brief:

Spoiler: show

Washington state. We had medical debt following her heart surgeries and bilateral adrenalectomes, but other than standard living expenses (gas, food, rent, utilities, health insurance, life insurance, renter's insurance), we didn't have any-- we have never had a credit card balance for more than two months, and we have never paid more than 2k for a car, which we paid for with cash up front.

But, our food budget is about 1/2 the typical American family's (lots and lots of home-made stuff, from bread to soup stock to home-grown tomatoes, basil, rosemary, etc... it takes about an average of 30 minutes total prep time per weekday and another half-hour cooking, and about two hours prep and an hour cooking on weekends-- something anyone COULD do, but it does need to be a priority). We walk almost everywhere rather than drive to save on gas. We use the library. We haven't had cable since the 2nd year of our marriage. We go to, on average, one movie in the theaters every two years, and our dates are almost always under $30 for the night, and usually under $10-- we hit up free nights at museums, picnics at a local park we haven't been to before, things like that. The only vacation we've had in that time was when I graduated college, and we slowed our debt payment to its minimums for about a year (we took the kids down to Disneyland, and visited my in-their-90s-grandparents after we found out my grandfather had the early stages of Alzheimers).

With kids, we shop almost exclusively for them at thrift stores. Once we had a second kid, I stopped working (I couldn't get a job that would cover child care we were comfortable with; needed about $15/hour in this area to cover child care for two kids, plus increased gas and other expenses of working, real and typically associated), and have been homeschooling (all of my student loan debt was for childcare while I was finishing my degree).

We use TracPhone for cell service, and make heavy use of the internet (pretty much our one big constant indulgence), to talk whenever possible, so the minutes stretch pretty far out. We keep the temperature down in our place (usually 65), and make use of sweaters and such very heavily-- our utility bills are lower than the average in our area by about $20/month for a family our size.

The only other obligation we've had is our tithe, 10% of the gross. About 1/4 of that goes to our church, the remainder goes to various charities locally and internationally (part supports continuing work with folks I met in the Philippines who are educating the homeless there and providing food, clothes, and jobs; my wife helps fund a literacy program in Mexico; we both support local food and clothing charities in Seattle).

I should note, my wife grew up as a missionary kid, and as I said, I spent time at Smokey Mountain in Manila (for those who don't know, it was a massive garbage dump that was home to about 80,000 people, just outside Manila in the Philippines). We both grew up extremely poor, and with all I've said, we honestly are living better than we did growing up, and a LOT better than we have seen many people living first-hand. In America, we're kinda different-- our entertainment budget has been under $70/month for the vast majority of our marriage (it got bumped to $80 when we got Netflix). For Christmas and the holidays in general, we spend less than $300 total, and it was under $100 before we had kids.

I don't agree with Dave Ramsey on everything, though my wife is a huge fan... but a lot of his stuff really does help. We pay cash for almost EVERYTHING. I price things out at the grocery store before I go, I clip coupons, we haven't been to a restaurant in 5 years. We go over our budget every month. Whenever we get unexpected money (birthday presents, bonus or overtime at work, whatever), it goes straight to paying off a debt. And it's been hard at times-- I would imagine it would be much harder for folks who have NOT lived like we have in the past, and with every bit of our debt that we get paid completely off, it's really tempting to slow down the payments, and indulge a little more. But, so far, we haven't. Our savings aren't all that much (we have 3 months expenses right now), and we haven't put to retirement yet. But, ALL of our financial obligations should be cleaned out, other than monthly living expenses, within 7 years (less, if my side-writing pays off more at any point or if she continues to get raises).

Right now, we're paying just under $1075/month toward our student loan debts, about 12900/year. We've been doing that pretty consistently for the last 6 years. We finished her medical debts (about $10k), in the third year. We're paying a little less now (our mortgage is higher than our rent was, and now we have water/sewer/garbage, and other expenses of home ownership, so it's down to about $800/month). We should have everything but the house paid off in the next two years, and the house within 5-7 years after that (7 if we get no more income, 5 if our timelines on added income work out).

That's a lot of personal information and details; parse it out if you want to. It's entirely doable, though, if you're willing to skimp and throw everything at it. But I'm looking forward to having about 1k total monthly expenses in 7 years, and having $2.3k/month+ to save for retirement, kids college, and having fun without the stress. And I will be among the first to admit that budgeting to the extent we have is a skill that definitely needs to be taught-- my wife and I both grew up in similar households (no credit card debt for either of our families, ever; cash for almost everything; eat-at-home), and we're both completely on board with getting this debt paid off. Neither of us are afraid of numbers, which helps a lot. We both have experience as bookkeepers, and so keeping track of every dollar is a skill that we have very well developed.


And, like I said, I would love to see the expected cost of college go down. My wife and I took our debt on knowingly, and we are going to pay it off. That's just the way it's gotta be for us. But I *do* agree that college is an expense that should be societal, not individual, because its benefits are largely societal as well. It would be great to know that the $50k/child we'll have set aside will be able to go toward a down payment on a home instead of tuition. I'd love for my kids to not have to go through 17 years to get 100% debt free. I'd absolutely love it, and I do think that it would be better for everyone involved if that weren't the expectation. I'd also like home-ec to be a thing that's required in schools-- the basics on how easy it is to prepare healthy, inexpensive meals at home, how you can prep things the night before, how wonderful things like crock pots are for helping save money, how to budget for a household, showing just how much interest adds to debt, things like that would do more for more people to prepare them for life than just about any other class could. And maybe it's because I work with and hang out with poor people a lot more than middle class/rich people, but a lot of those kinds of lessons are things that I see turn people's lives around, as soon as they embrace it.

But to say that you CAN'T do it is kinda misleading. You can. You just really, really have to want to get out from under it,and you have to be willing to sacrifice to make it a thing that happens, and you do need the education on how you can do it.

You are the exception to the rule because of your willingness to live a life of extreme austerity. You also have 2 incomes to pay that debt. Many people do not have that option and wages are the same as or lower than they were during the Bush II era. It's near impossible for the vast majority of students, who were promised the world and given no financial advice for college expenses, to pay off their debt. That will sway the vote for many years to come. The millennials are going to be far more liberal as they get older than the baby boomers were/are. I myself have remained quite liberal with social issues as I have gotten older. I am 15 years out of high school with kids and a wife and am more liberal now than I was then.

[Marootsoobutsu]

You are the exception to the rule because of your willingness to live a life of extreme austerity.

Absolutely, though I certainly don't feel impoverished-- I hit museums up often, have access to the library with movies, books, magazines, etc..., the internet is a vast playground. While we're strict with our finances, that doesn't mean we don't enjoy life. We just do it cheaply. And while we have two incomes, we also have two kids, and my income last year came out to about 5.5k-- even if you aren't married, you can get a roommate in an apartment, and you essentially function on that double-income for most of your major non-debt expenses.

It's near impossible for the vast majority of students, who were promised the world and given no financial advice for college expenses, to pay off their debt.

But this is the bigger problems. College doesn't really prepare you, and there were NO classes in high school or university-- at least none at mine-- that were required that would give you day-to-day living life skills. Nothing about money management, nothing about how to deal with chores or finances or the like. Yeah, that's something kids should pick up from their folks, but looking at a lot of my peers' parents, they don't really have those tools, either. The Baby Boomers really dropped the ball on a lot of parentage in those terms-- the urge to protect and provide for their kids largely left them not quite learning how to take care of things themselves, since they were very strongly shielded. Schools right now give, at best, token warnings and "Hey, don't do debt if you can avoid it!" but they do it in a really, really defeatist way.

And then there's the expectations put up: that "Hey, get your degree, and the world's open to you!" Nah. Get your degree, get a job at the bottom, and work your way up. The degree will open doors, but sometimes you need to take that crap starter job first, and there are a lot of millenials who aren't willing to do that-- the whole, "I'm pissed, because I got a degree so I wouldn't have to flip burgers, and now I'm not willing to". Well, fine, but everyone starts somewhere, but you don't end there. College is A step, but not the only step, toward a career. That is also not stressed, particularly as kids are going into school. It's seen as a way to skip the grunt work, rather than as a way to escape it later, by having that edge over others.

[Serra]

Two things:

Jeb Bush's presidential campaign raised $13.4 million in the third quarter, an aide told CNN, a haul that could help the former Florida governor quiet concerns about the state of his campaign.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/15/politi...ons/index.html

Republican front-runners Donald Trump and Ben Carson are threatening to pull out of the next Republican primary debate if the hosts don't agree to their demands.

In a letter to CNBC, which is hosting the next debate, the two candidates said they would not participate in the Oct. 28 debate "if it is longer than 120 minutes including commercials and does not include opening and closing statements."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/15/politi...out/index.html

[Tyche]

Good for trump and Carson. No need for running a 3 hour debate.

[Blubbartron]

Good for trump and Carson. No need for running a 3 hour debate.

Gotta disagree with this. The debates are the only time candidates ever have anything resembling a serious discourse regarding issues. Granted, Republicans don't ever talk about actual issues to begin with, but on principle having shorter debates is bad for democracy.

[Tyche]

I had 200-something undergrad hours between community college and three universities. 10k debt. I guess being poor and smart had its perks.

[Tyche]

Gotta disagree with this. The debates are the only time candidates ever have anything resembling a serious discourse regarding issues. Granted, Republicans don't ever talk about actual issues to begin with, but on principle having shorter debates is bad for democracy.

oh horseshit. You know the policy issues of every candidate or can find it quite easily with a cursory Internet search. Debates are almost pointless. It's used to see who does best on a stage in an unscripted moment.

[archibaldcrane]

They need to cut the bullshit and at least chop down to the top 8, Kasich, Huckabee, Rand and Christie can fight over the last 2 spots.

Although I hope they don't, we need this shitshow going as long as possible.

[archibaldcrane]

I had 200-something undergrad hours between community college and three universities. 10k debt. I guess being poor and smart had its perks.

I could "back in my day" shit pretty hard too, but tuition for the state schools I attended is 2.5x higher now than when I was there.

[Acevalefor]

Absolutely, though I certainly don't feel impoverished-- I hit museums up often, have access to the library with movies, books, magazines, etc..., the internet is a vast playground. While we're strict with our finances, that doesn't mean we don't enjoy life. We just do it cheaply. And while we have two incomes, we also have two kids, and my income last year came out to about 5.5k-- even if you aren't married, you can get a roommate in an apartment, and you essentially function on that double-income for most of your major non-debt expenses.

I am in the same boat. We have around 20k in debt left from school. We have made around 40k/yr for the last 6 years. We have 5 kids. I still despise much of the bullshit spouted by the republican voters that I know. I will not be changing my mind about them or what they say any time soon. My income, my debt, and my responsibilities only serve to remind me just how far removed the right wing is from reality. I want security. I want fair income for work done. I want healthcare for my kids. I want a home of my own. Unchecked fiscal policies centered around oligarchic rules will not provide me that. Shutting down the government and holding budgets hostage to shut down women's health clinics will not get me that. It will not get me that when I am 60 years old either.

[archibaldcrane]

I could "back in my day" shit pretty hard too, but tuition for the state schools I attended is 2.5x higher now than when I was there.

That being said, did none of y'all have parents who socked away a grand a year for your college while you were growing up?

[Tyche]

I could "back in my day" shit pretty hard too, but tuition for the state schools I attended is 2.5x higher now than when I was there.

I've had probably 50 credit hours in the last 5 years. It wasn't a long time ago. I literally hit the pell cap and couldn't use it anymore which is why I have the debt I have.

[kuronosan]

Absolutely, though I certainly don't feel impoverished-- I hit museums up often, have access to the library with movies, books, magazines, etc..., the internet is a vast playground. While we're strict with our finances, that doesn't mean we don't enjoy life. We just do it cheaply. And while we have two incomes, we also have two kids, and my income last year came out to about 5.5k-- even if you aren't married, you can get a roommate in an apartment, and you essentially function on that double-income for most of your major non-debt expenses.



But this is the bigger problems. College doesn't really prepare you, and there were NO classes in high school or university-- at least none at mine-- that were required that would give you day-to-day living life skills. Nothing about money management, nothing about how to deal with chores or finances or the like. Yeah, that's something kids should pick up from their folks, but looking at a lot of my peers' parents, they don't really have those tools, either. The Baby Boomers really dropped the ball on a lot of parentage in those terms-- the urge to protect and provide for their kids largely left them not quite learning how to take care of things themselves, since they were very strongly shielded. Schools right now give, at best, token warnings and "Hey, don't do debt if you can avoid it!" but they do it in a really, really defeatist way.

And then there's the expectations put up: that "Hey, get your degree, and the world's open to you!" Nah. Get your degree, get a job at the bottom, and work your way up. The degree will open doors, but sometimes you need to take that crap starter job first, and there are a lot of millenials who aren't willing to do that-- the whole, "I'm pissed, because I got a degree so I wouldn't have to flip burgers, and now I'm not willing to". Well, fine, but everyone starts somewhere, but you don't end there. College is A step, but not the only step, toward a career. That is also not stressed, particularly as kids are going into school. It's seen as a way to skip the grunt work, rather than as a way to escape it later, by having that edge over others.

And then when you spend 3 years flipping burgers waiting for a big break with your degree in graphic design, you get told you won't be hired because you haven't worked in your field for 3 years.

You seem to think this isn't a reality for anyone. Perhaps a lot of millennials have this attitude, but most degrees aren't leading to a "work your way up" scenario for the vast majority of students. Low pay in anything but a career or technical skill is the reality, and the pay doesn't let you pay off anything.

[Tyche]

I am in the same boat. We have around 20k in debt left from school. We have made around 40k/yr for the last 6 years. We have 5 kids. I still despise much of the bullshit spouted by the republican voters that I know. I will not be changing my mind about them or what they say any time soon. My income, my debt, and my responsibilities only serve to remind me just how far removed the right wing is from reality. I want security. I want fair income for work done. I want healthcare for my kids. I want a home of my own. Unchecked fiscal policies centered around oligarchic rules will not provide me that. Shutting down the government and holding budgets hostage to shut down women's health clinics will not get me that. It will not get me that when I am 60 years old either.

TIL I don't have the most kids on BG.

[Acevalefor]

That being said, did none of y'all have parents who socked away a grand a year for your college while you were growing up?

I had a single mother who drove 3 hours per day to work for 12-18k/yr for 14 years. I had a father who's income was so sporadic that he lived in countless different places as I was growing up. College was never an option for me. It wasn't until 2 years ago that I even got the opportunity to go to college and I realized after 1 year of struggling that I cannot make the switch from the professional world back to academia. Tuition-free school would not benefit me, but it may help my children.