2016 USA Presidential election thread I: The warm-up

[dasva]

God Trump never stops being entertaining. Gunna be so sad when the ride ends

[notorious bum]

"45% [of Dems] favor banning Muslims if Trump’s name not mentioned" - when Trump mentioned, "support drops to 25%" http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...s-muslims.html

[archibaldcrane]

Banning muslims is the Democrat's version of the Affordable Care Act/Obamacare to Republicans.

[Blubbartron]

Heh, that's a pretty good analogy with the ACA. I'm one of the 25% that wouldn't terribly mind not allowing more Muslims into the country. It'd be one thing if they were the "huddled masses yearning to be free", but they're not. A huge portion of them live under the crushing oppression of Sharia, and they can tell that their lives are shit, but they don't (generally speaking) correctly blame Sharia and Islam being intrinsically connected to their government with the problems they suffer from. So they move elsewhere, and they still believe in Sharia being the perfect form of justice and law, and they end up shitting up the places they move to as they gain power and influence. I honestly do wonder how people can see the problems being caused by The Great Migration in Europe and think that it's totally fine to just let them all come in droves.

Slightly off-topic perhaps, but this is a good article about refugees/emigration, and how most people aren't really fleeing war, but poverty.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...r-decades.html

[zoobernut]

Heh, that's a pretty good analogy with the ACA. I'm one of the 25% that wouldn't terribly mind not allowing more Muslims into the country. It'd be one thing if they were the "huddled masses yearning to be free", but they're not. A huge portion of them live under the crushing oppression of Sharia, and they can tell that their lives are shit, but they don't (generally speaking) correctly blame Sharia and Islam being intrinsically connected to their government with the problems they suffer from. So they move elsewhere, and they still believe in Sharia being the perfect form of justice and law, and they end up shitting up the places they move to as they gain power and influence. I honestly do wonder how people can see the problems being caused by The Great Migration in Europe and think that it's totally fine to just let them all come in droves.

Slightly off-topic perhaps, but this is a good article about refugees/emigration, and how most people aren't really fleeing war, but poverty.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...r-decades.html

To me this sounds like any other religious person not just Muslims. I think if we are restricting muslims in this country on that basis then we should restrict other religions as well for the same reason.

[notorious bum]

Cool story. Good luck with the whole illegal screening of Muslims concept, I'm sure it looks good on paper.

[Blubbartron]

To me this sounds like any other religious person not just Muslims. I think if we are restricting muslims in this country on that basis then we should restrict other religions as well for the same reason.

Most religions don't emphasize having the religion be directly intertwined with governance like Islam does. Even in Christianity they have that whole bit about "render unto Caesar." Whether that be because other religions are several hundred years more civilized than Islam is, or if it's part of their dogma, that doesn't really matter. The fact remains that in this present time, Islam has a nasty habit of taking over secular governments. That's why Iran in the 70's was a decent place to live. That's why Turkey (for the most part) today is a decent place to live. But we can actually watch Turkey going through the same shit that Iran went through.

Basically, saying "Islam is just like other religions" is factually wrong. False equivalences and shit.

[Blubbartron]

Cool story. Good luck with the whole illegal screening of Muslims concept, I'm sure it looks good on paper.

We are talking about the same thing right? Immigrants? These people aren't US citizens, and aren't afforded any protections against discrimination under our laws. And as far as I'm aware, there are no international laws that say a country MUST accept immigrants no matter what, or on what grounds they're allowed to decide who can come in. Can you clarify what, exactly, would make this illegal?

[archibaldcrane]

Slightly off-topic perhaps, but this is a good article about refugees/emigration, and how most people aren't really fleeing war, but poverty.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...r-decades.html

"Most people" is pretty vague. Syria, in particular (what this conversation generally revolves around for US refugee purposes) is a bombed-out, depleted active war zone. Besides, we're going to accept 80,000 refugees anyway in 2016 (like we do every year), the only question is where they come from.

[Tyche]

Most religions don't emphasize having the religion be directly intertwined with governance like Islam does. Even in Christianity they have that whole bit about "render unto Caesar." Whether that be because other religions are several hundred years more civilized than Islam is, or if it's part of their dogma, that doesn't really matter. The fact remains that in this present time, Islam has a nasty habit of taking over secular governments. That's why Iran in the 70's was a decent place to live. That's why Turkey (for the most part) today is a decent place to live. But we can actually watch Turkey going through the same shit that Iran went through.

Basically, saying "Islam is just like other religions" is factually wrong. False equivalences and shit.

The US will never elect an openly atheist president. The first step of getting into politics in the U.S. is being active in the church. The Republican Party is a thing. If you don't think our governance and Christianity aren't intertwined, you've been living under a rock. Hell, just today the governor of Kentucky just issued an executive order that shits on the separation of church and state by allowing troglodytes like Kim Davis to operate unchecked.

[archibaldcrane]

Plus, when thinking about the US - we aren't being bombarded with "emigrants" who arrive by any means necessary from the Middle East. There's this big ocean that gets in the way. Refugees are going through the UN process, meaning they are in UN refugee camps - hardly a place people end up unless they have no other choice. Comparing the US situation to the situation faced by EU countries is very faulty because of this.

[zoobernut]

Most religions don't emphasize having the religion be directly intertwined with governance like Islam does. Even in Christianity they have that whole bit about "render unto Caesar." Whether that be because other religions are several hundred years more civilized than Islam is, or if it's part of their dogma, that doesn't really matter. The fact remains that in this present time, Islam has a nasty habit of taking over secular governments. That's why Iran in the 70's was a decent place to live. That's why Turkey (for the most part) today is a decent place to live. But we can actually watch Turkey going through the same shit that Iran went through.

Basically, saying "Islam is just like other religions" is factually wrong. False equivalences and shit.

Yeah except most of the major political fights in this country in recent history have revolved around one group of people using religion as a cornerstone of their argument for why things should be a certain way. Same sex marriage, access to abortion, etc.

The amount of people in this country who think that this is a Christian nation based on Christian values is enormous. How is that any different than Sharia law? It certainly doesn't feel any different to me. The fact is that a lot of people in this country don't want a secular government they just want to make sure that their religion is the one controlling the government not some other scary religion they don't believe in but to someone who doesn't subscribe to either religion both groups look pretty much the same.

[Blubbartron]

Plus, when thinking about the US - we aren't being bombarded with "emigrants" who arrive by any means necessary from the Middle East. There's this big ocean that gets in the way. Refugees are going through the UN process, meaning they are in UN refugee camps - hardly a place people end up unless they have no other choice. Comparing the US situation to the situation faced by EU countries is very faulty because of this.

Did you really use sarcasm quotes on the word emigrant? It's an actual word, similar to immigrant, but different in perspective. Look it up. And I'll grant you that people (aside from Mexicans/Canadians) can't just wander in to our country, which puts us a lot better off, but the people who are leaving their countries don't overwhelmingly change. As noted in that article, people who were out in the middle of large bodies of water, risking drowning, were not absurdly poor. It's like people think that just because there's a war happening in a country, that basic logistics like "moving costs money" don't exist anymore. The people that have the ability to leave are the ones that have enough money to make it.

In response to the few others who were all saying virtually the same thing, yes, I'll grant you that the Christian Right is a thing, and it's shameful. They started gaining power in the 60's or thereabouts, when the umbrella concept of "Christian" became more important than the actual sects of Christianity. And yes, they've managed to do things in our country that suck quite a bit. However, there are obviously factors in play that are mostly keeping them in check. They aren't going around outlawing divorce, or mandating that women can't hold authority over men. So again I say it's a false equivalence to compare Christian people in our government to fundamentalist Muslims who gained power in Iran, and have been in Turkey, and who have similar beliefs to large swaths of Muslims in various other countries (including Syria/Iraq).

[archibaldcrane]

Not sarcasm quotes, just highlighting that the refugees we are talking about in the US are going through a very different process than many of the emigrants into the EU.

Italics might be better.

And the idea that many of these people piled onto boats are not dirt poor points more strongly to the fact that they're fleeing war, not poverty...and also that they are more likely to successfully integrate into a new country because (especially in Syria) most of them are literate, have a formal education, and have first-world job skills.

[Blubbartron]

Not sarcasm quotes, just highlighting that the refugees we are talking about in the US are going through a very different process than many of the emigrants into the EU.

Italics might be better.

And the idea that many of these people piled onto boats are not dirt poor points more strongly to the fact that they're fleeing war, not poverty...and also that they are more likely to successfully integrate into a new country because (especially in Syria) most of them are literate, have a formal education, and have first-world job skills.

I should've been more clear on the poverty part. They're not exactly running from personal poverty, but country poverty. Their countries are shitholes, and a rich man in a shithole is still living in a shithole. This was said more clearly in the article. So yes, they're fleeing their countries in the hopes of a better life, and they're using the war as a convenient excuse to be allowed in. People aren't stupid. They're opportunistic. And that's exactly why we need to recognize that there's a lot more emigrants in these groups of refugees than we might be willing to admit.

[archibaldcrane]

Right

But they also don't want to die

That's why they are fleeing war-torn Syria

[Blubbartron]

Also, because I found this linked elsewhere just a bit ago - having literacy and formal education doesn't mean they'd integrate well at all. Here's a prime example of one guy on r/islam getting destroyed by the other Muslims. Some of the people shitting all over him for being more liberal and progressive-minded are moderators of the entire sub. It's really disturbing.

https://archive.is/dPyOV

A prime quote:

You realise that there are punishments written in the Quran, and to say you are against it is to disbelieve in the Quran. Disbelieving in a single verse of the Quran is a nullifier of Islam.

The thing he was disbelieving was that people should ever be stoned/lashed/executed as punishments by law. If most Muslims were like this guy, I wouldn't have any problem with tens of thousands of them coming here. But they're simply not, and all polling that has been done shows this.

[archibaldcrane]

"Yeah it would be easier for them to integrate if they were illiterate and had no modern job skills."

(those are sarcasm quotes)

[Ksandra]

I am not sure why it matters if whether they are fleeing because of povery or because of war. Both suck balls and both are a valid reason to get the fuck out.

[Blubbartron]

I am not sure why it matters if whether they are fleeing because of povery or because of war. Both suck balls and both are a valid reason to get the fuck out.

Because we're a lot more receptive to taking people in when they're coming because they could be killed than if they're just trying to improve their station in life. It's a hell of a lot more difficult to be a legal immigrant than it is to be a refugee granted asylum.