2016 USA Presidential election thread I: The warm-up

[Andalusian girls]

his reasoning is wrong, getting captured doesn't preclude one from being a 'war hero', whatever exactly that entails. but i don't particularly care if someone sees McCain as a hero or not and dislike devolving into semantics, as kuro points out the deeper issue is his unrelenting hypocrisy, attacking the military record of a volunteer who requested a combat assignment while he was fucking coeds with daddy's money while receiving 5 deferments in a row

[Thunder]

isn't it still semantics? Why's it hypocritical to criticize how well someone performed doing X duty even if the person criticizing avoided trying to perform the duty himself 5 times, or however many times in row

[Blubbartron]

isn't it still semantics? Why's it hypocritical to criticize how well someone performed doing X duty even if the person criticizing avoided trying to perform the duty himself 5 times, or however many times in row

Pretty much a form of ad hominem, not really semantics. They're attacking the person instead of the argument. Trump's argument is fine, despite him being a generally shitty (and enormously irritating) person.

[Thunder]

isn't the argument that he's not a war hero? Attacking mccain's war hero status by saying he got captured =/= personal attack, no?


I realize how stupid this conversation is, but it's strange that you and I have completely opposite opinion. I think the argument is bullshit but not semantical/hypocritical once you move past saying a POW -cannot- be a hero

edit: added hypocritical

[Andalusian girls]

Pretty much a form of ad hominem, not really semantics. They're attacking the person instead of the argument. Trump's argument is fine, despite him being a generally shitty (and enormously irritating) person.

reading is hard

[kuronosan]

Pretty much a form of ad hominem, not really semantics. They're attacking the person instead of the argument. Trump's argument is fine, despite him being a generally shitty (and enormously irritating) person.

Except his argument isn't fine. It's a logical fallacy. He purports that because McCain was captured means he's not a war hero while being the very definition of "not even active military" himself.

Like most shitty candidates, people listen to him because he says what they want to hear, yet don't practice a bit of it.

[Blubbartron]

Except his argument isn't fine. It's a logical fallacy. He purports that because McCain was captured means he's not a war hero while being the very definition of "not even active military" himself.

Like most shitty candidates, people listen to him because he says what they want to hear, yet don't practice a bit of it.

While I agree that there are better reasons to say McCain's not a hero, and more convincing ways to describe how useless he was in the military, Trump's mostly responding to people who think that a purple heart recipient is automatically a war hero. There are a lot of people that honestly think getting tortured "for your country" is an admirable/heroic thing. Those people are fucking stupid. Anytime someone speaks with reverence or respect of John McCain regarding his military service, the sole reason they mention is him being a PoW and getting tortured. It's not unreasonable or silly to point out how ridiculous that line of reasoning is, so I'm at a loss as to why Trump is getting so much shit over it.

[Tarage]

McCain may be a pompous jackass who I disagree with heavily, but he is a war hero. I don't understand what insanity Trump is spewing, but I don't know anyone who could rationalize liking him.

[Blubbartron]

McCain may be a pompous jackass who I disagree with heavily, but he is a war hero. I don't understand what insanity Trump is spewing, but I don't know anyone who could rationalize liking him.

He's not a war hero. He's a spoiled brat who was awarded honors far, far above his actions and despite his constant fuckups. You can read the following for a good explanation of why he's a dipshit. http://lasteelshow.org/main/?p=888

The majority of that is backed up by this wikipedia article, though the article has obviously been polished to a mirror shine to make him look good. The spin is outrageous for something that's supposed to be neutral. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_...of_John_McCain

[Byrthnoth]

McCain might not meet whatever imaginary bar you set for a "hero," but his experiences in war led him to be one of the few consistent anti-torture voices during the last few years and that has to be worth something.

Trump would probably waterboard people five times despite being shown evidence that it doesn't produce meaningful intel. Then he'd follow it up by making the most offensive that he can, so people talk about his ridiculous statement instead of how ridiculous his position is.

[Xantavia]

We all know that if McCain called Trump a failed businessman because of all his bankruptcies, Trump would tell him he's (McCain) no businessman so he doesn't know what he is talking about. Then he'd sue him for slander.

[kuronosan]

Which is exactly the point I'm making.

[Thunder]

isn't that like saying you can't talk about how a paladin is supposed to tank in crawler's nest because you don't have it unlocked? can't criticize amateur cops for what they do because you're not a cop?

That's dumb. Obviously if something is really difficult and required decades of experience to do/understand/appreciate... then yeah, that argument can fly. Can't just apply that excuse to things when it suits you and ignore it when it doesn't, it has its place and it's being misused here

if McCain was some amateur dude in the military fucking up at every turn then it should be pretty easy to criticize for someone who wasn't in the military to appreciate the intricacies of how difficult it is. On the other hand, if McCain wanted to criticize trump for business when the guy's done things that nobody else has done in history (going 9 billion in debt to +whatever billions he's worth today) then... yeah, it'd be right to say McCain is talking out of his ass because "he's not a businessman"

[kuronosan]

isn't that like saying you can't talk about how a paladin is supposed to tank in crawler's nest because you don't have it unlocked? can't criticize amateur cops for what they do because you're not a cop?

That's dumb. Obviously if something is really difficult and required decades of experience to do/understand/appreciate... then yeah, that argument can fly. Can't just apply that excuse to things when it suits you and ignore it when it doesn't, it has its place and it's being misused here

if McCain was some amateur dude in the military fucking up at every turn then it should be pretty easy to criticize for someone who wasn't in the military to appreciate the intricacies of how difficult it is. On the other hand, if McCain wanted to criticize trump for business when the guy's done things that nobody else has done in history (going 9 billion in debt to +whatever billions he's worth today) then... yeah, it'd be right to say McCain is talking out of his ass because "he's not a businessman"

No, it's more like a meleeing RDM telling a Gt. Sword PLD to tank.

[mallister]

/engagepopcornprotocols

http://tmztoday.com/el-chapo-puts-10...dead-or-alive/

[Byrthnoth]

Publicity stunt on both sides. El Chapo is playing the people's hero in Mexico, but probably wouldn't mind seeing Trump die. Trump is playing the "politician so truthy that people wanna kill him" in the US, but probably won't die.

If Trump doesn't die, this will only help him. If he does die, we won't have to worry about the scepter of a chance that he could win the primary and general elections.

[zoobernut]

Publicity stunt on both sides. El Chapo is playing the people's hero in Mexico, but probably wouldn't mind seeing Trump die. Trump is playing the "politician so truthy that people wanna kill him" in the US, but probably won't die.

If Trump doesn't die, this will only help him. If he does die, we won't have to worry about the scepter of a chance that he could win the primary and general elections.

But what if Trump comes back and we end up with Zombie Trump as president? You know he would win the zombie vote to be the first zombie president.

[Marootsoobutsu]

He's not wrong, on this account. John McCain's military "career" is laughable, and referring to him as a hero is an insult to people who actually did shit. Getting tortured doesn't automatically make you a hero. It makes you pitiable, but that's about it.

McCain had the opportunity to leave early, but didn't because the rest of his folks weren't getting out, too. He was tortured for years, but he refused to go home because of the message that special treatment would send to the other POWs.

I'm not a big McCain supporter, but to suggest he isn't a hero is terrifyingly removed from reality.

[Galkaeater]

godbless mccain and their frozen french fries

[Serra]

Democrats: As ever, no real change (Hilldog has actually gone up in the latest polls).

Republicans: Top three are Trump, Walker, and Bush. Sixteen candidates now, so six are going to be excluded on the sixth (less than three weeks to go) -- Fiorina, Perry, Graham, Pataki, Jindal, and Gilmore.

Interestingly, Trump doesn't actually even make the top three in Iowa, and out of the first four, the best he does is second in New Hampshire.

Based on the latest polls -- Fox News.