2016 USA Presidential election thread I: The warm-up

[Fiye]

Bernie Sanders in the general won't cost you an election. The man fares better in every contest. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...tial_race.html

I have no doubts that Clinton will continue to push for a progressive agenda when it comes to social rights and equalities. Right now the big issue on the Transgender rights and the bathroom legislation that republican controlled states have started to introduce. Soon enough one of those will end up making its way up to the supreme court and getting squashed there.

The big issue that I don't think any candidate besides Bernie will attack is one of income inequality and the economy. How the hell do we afford anything when we tell companies that, nah this time you won't pay a 35% tax rate. This time, and this time only, you'll pay the nice low rate of 14%. Don't worry we'll be doing this again.

[Gredival]

And we've discussed Bernie's head-to-head numbers vs. Hillary's head-to-head numbers already.

1) The GE polls this far out aren't predictable historically
2) They are heavily skewed in Bernie's favor since they reflect years of right wing attack ads against Hillary and Bernie not being given any negative attention by the right
3) It's a national poll which isn't how the election is decided

[Andalusian girls]

taxation has two fundamental effects, it raises revenue and it discourages the production and consumption of the good or service that is being taxed. as such corporate taxation is one of if not the worst conceivable ways to fund government as it specifically retards the economic activity most responsible for the generation of jobs and capital.

progressive types often bemoan what they view as the inequity of the situation, a combined statutory rate of 39.4% on all corporate profit yet an effective rate of something like 19%-25% as corporations aggressively pursue subsidies, deductions, and foreign tax havens. what is lost is that the statutory rate is the exact reason corporations engage in what is viewed as unethical behavior and when the cost to comply is less than the cost to evade they will become paragons of acquiescent virtue, with a host of concomitant salutary reverberations.

from a corporate perspective acquiring a foreign company for a one-time expenditure of 5% of annual profit to be used for a corporate inversion (a particularly reviled form of tax evasion) that allows them to utilize a tax rate 15% lower than the U.S. rate is an entirely rational, perhaps inevitable, sequence of events given the perverse incentives of our current tax code. a code where one is punished with a brutally punitive rate when playing by the rules yet one excels when they begin sinking costs into non-relevant operations like maintaining floors full of accountants lobbyists and lawyers to game the system, a code where the profitability and productivity of American workers has to gap the distance between our 39.4% rate and Ireland's 12.5% rate when Intel is trying to decide where to build a manufacturing site.

for the good of the country the corporate tax rate ought be lowered, drastically, and most deductions and exemptions eliminated, reducing the incentives for corporations to base operations overseas or maintain their bloated tax evasion apparatuses. moreover, the more profitable and simpler-to-operate-in business environment would generate an influx of foreign investment as non-American corporations sought to outsource their production into the largest of the world's markets, a phenomenon inexorably witnessed in smaller and lesser economies which have reduced and simplified their corporate tax structure.

Bernie's plan is standard fare for him, simply enforce the current destructive rate (the highest in the entire world besides the mercantile powerhouses of Chad and the United Arab Emirates) through rigid bureaucratic coercion, an economically illiterate appeal to populist rage that would wound those for whom he professes to care

[Meph]

I don't know if I would call this troll or threat.
http://gothamist.com/2016/03/27/phot...d_trumps_t.php

[ringthree]

taxation has two fundamental effects, it raises revenue and it discourages the production and consumption of the good or service that is being taxed. as such corporate taxation is one of if not the worst conceivable ways to fund government as it specifically retards the economic activity most responsible for the generation of jobs and capital.

I disagree with this on an economic and perception level. I am about to head to work, but I will expand later if you want to engage in the discussion.

SOME taxation may actually cause this, but on a fundamental level taxation is often preferable to assuming certain costs on an individual/business level. Taxation has inherent economies of scales that even the largest businesses can't match.

We can debate what level the taxes should be at, but even the most ardent anti-tax theorist believe that some taxation is necessary for a business environment to even exist (e.g. Noziak). The problem is that these benefits have become so ingrained that business now assume them to be free.

Roads, access to electricity, even the mail, police, military, courts, hell even the social safety net.

I am not disputing the nature of our specific corporate tax structure (which needs to have many different identifiable balancing points, and is not as simple as you make it out to be) but you made a completely incorrect blanket statement about the nature of taxation.

[Quicklet]

I think we're seeing more and more evidence that we're actually undertaxed and it's having a detrimental effect on the economy. Most people should be paying a little more, the well-off should be paying substantially more, and public services and investment should not be systematically underfunded the way they appear to be now.

I know it's not a popular idea because nobody likes paying more taxes, but it just seems like the historically low tax rates we've had over the past 15 years have not brought the kind of growth they've promised, at least not to the middle-class.

[Fiye]

I mean its not like Pennsylvania, Kansas, and Louisiana are doing very good with managing revenue lately.

[Guyverarmor]

Sir, Brownback in Kansas has brought PROSPERITY to his people ! I mean, just look at all the Tax Breaks he gave and how good Businesses are doing !


Despite the fact that the state is complete and utter shit hole of shortfall it would give accountants nightmares.

[Byrthnoth]

Ugh, next you guys will be trying to tell me that trickle down economics doesn't work.

WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!

[BerenTebogo]

Ugh, next you guys will be trying to tell me that trickle down economics doesn't work.

WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!

Reaganomics!

[Guyverarmor]

Ugh, next you guys will be trying to tell me that trickle down economics doesn't work.

WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!

Wait a minute, TRICKLE DOWN DOESN'T WORK !?! WHAT.THE.FUCK ! All these Capitalists and Neocons tell me it does, WHY WOULD SAINT REAGAN LIE !?!?!?!?!

[Fiye]

https://www.yahoo.com/politics/why-b...160148852.html

This gave me a good chuckle.

[Andalusian girls]

I disagree with this on an economic and perception level. I am about to head to work, but I will expand later if you want to engage in the discussion.

SOME taxation may actually cause this, but on a fundamental level taxation is often preferable to assuming certain costs on an individual/business level. Taxation has inherent economies of scales that even the largest businesses can't match.

We can debate what level the taxes should be at, but even the most ardent anti-tax theorist believe that some taxation is necessary for a business environment to even exist (e.g. Noziak). The problem is that these benefits have become so ingrained that business now assume them to be free.

Roads, access to electricity, even the mail, police, military, courts, hell even the social safety net.

I am not disputing the nature of our specific corporate tax structure (which needs to have many different identifiable balancing points, and is not as simple as you make it out to be) but you made a completely incorrect blanket statement about the nature of taxation.

it defies comprehension how you could so badly misunderstand what i wrote that you think i was advocating for zero taxation or implying the government never does anything of value with the revenue raised.

I think we're seeing more and more evidence that we're actually undertaxed and it's having a detrimental effect on the economy. Most people should be paying a little more, the well-off should be paying substantially more, and public services and investment should not be systematically underfunded the way they appear to be now.

I know it's not a popular idea because nobody likes paying more taxes, but it just seems like the historically low tax rates we've had over the past 15 years have not brought the kind of growth they've promised, at least not to the middle-class.

we need to move beyond the constrictive dichotomy of higher or lower taxes as the be all end all discussion of the tax code. it is certainly a relevant component and one can make the argument we need to increase our share of government revenue as % of GDP, which as you say was a few percentage points lower during the 2000s and 2010s than the post-World War II historical average (though it is presently on the rise); you can even make the argument a European-style social democracy would be of net societal benefit so that historical mean itself is too low for the demands of a 21st century citizenry, but the argument you cannot make is that the additional revenue raised ought come from an increase in the effective corporate tax rate.

as outlined above corporate tax is the single most destructive form of taxation, it incentives outsourcing and non-business related expenditures in efforts to game the system while discouraging foreign investment and presenting both higher prices to consumers as businesses pass along the cost of the tax and fewer jobs to workers as corporations move operations overseas. it is the least productive form of raising revenue in an increasingly globalized economy where nations compete against one another for jobs and capital, and the recognition of this competitive downward pressure has led even heavily taxed social democracies such as Canada and Sweden to cut their corporate tax rates to 15% and 22% respectively, while making up for the revenue shortage with less toxic forms of taxation--income tax, property tax, excise taxes, value added taxes, estate tax, even capital gains taxes, none so directly retard economic activity and so all are preferable.

the discussion on this page readily illuminates how rudimentary discussion of taxation has become in this nation, even relative to the low standards of most political discourse. make noises about lowering and simplifying through deduction elimination a specific aspect of the tax code and the cry of voodoo economics goes into the air by the left. conversely if this forum were a bastion of conservative rather than liberal thought and one were to suggest the revenue shortfall from, say, halving the corporate tax rate should be made up with increased income taxes on high-earners, or a VAT tax, or increasing the tax of death, the cry of tyranny would resound through the air.

the most significant issue with our system of taxation is not that we are taxed too much or too little but that we are taxed so stupidly.

[Marootsoobutsu]

the most significant issue with our system of taxation is not that we are taxed too much or too little but that we are taxed so stupidly.

I'm having difficulty expressing my appreciation for this post without devolving into untoward vulgarity.

[thetruepandagod]

[Fiye]

I'm not touching this. Have some gawker.

http://gawker.com/ted-cruz-s-devasta...-cl-1767552872

[notorious bum]

Sander's has to stop being so harsh!

Clinton aide to Sanders: Change your "tone" if you want another debate http://bit.ly/1ShmfJS

[archibaldcrane]

Brutal stat as we approach primaryatopia (and mostly closed, not open primaries)

Sanders needs to win 57% of remaining delegates, says Clinton's Benenson, adding he's only reached that in 2 primaries: VT and NH.

[tyven]

daggerino

[archibaldcrane]

April 19th-26th is going to end this. All primaries, all closed.