2016 USA Presidential election thread I: The warm-up

[Niiro]

I'd consider it more akin to the argument that you don't get to choose what taxes you want to pay.

If there's an established union in your future line of work you know that and have to deal with it, you can disagree with how the union is run and can try and change it but wanting to opt-out entirely undermines the very purpose of the thing.

[Greatguardian]

or that there whole mandatory health insurance thing

Except you choose to be a teacher. Most of the time. STEM teachers choose to teach. Humanities teachers teach because who the fuck else is hiring people with Humanities degrees amirite

[Blubbartron]

I'm pretty pro-union, but I'm not so pro-union that I think it's kosher to force other people to support. I don't get how you guys are so fine with that idea. This is a private organization guys. This is not government taxing society to provide a stable civilization. This is not the government telling people they need to take a necessary step to protect themselves from being bankrupted by a medical emergency. It's a private organization that went out of its way to do something good, and thinks that's justification to *require* others to support it. It's not.

[Quicklet]

There may be an obvious answer to this but are you against homeowners associations as well? Should someone who buys a condo or whatever be able to refuse paying association fees that contribute to the overall upkeep of their neighborhood because they don't agree with the way the money is being used? It's their money, after all, they shouldn't be forced to spend it in a way they don't agree with.

[Marootsoobutsu]

I'm curious to hear more about the ways in which this union is actively hampering the progress of children in your mind. Because the things you've listed so far, eg. attempting to stifle brain drain from at-risk schools, setting high standards for and exposing high functioning special needs populations to normal/inclusion classrooms so they aren't mired in a swamp of remedial classes their entire careers, and encouraging collaboration between strong students and their peers can all be perceived as positive things from an educational perspective.

I'm not for removing smart kids entirely from contact with their peers, but the reality is that they still need additional stimulus, and there is a rather frequent tendency to give smart kids little challenge and less attention because they don't need it. While gifted students can-- and should-- be encouraged to help and interact with their peers, they should not be left alone to the degree they too-often are.

At-risk schools need care and attention, but at the same time, children shouldn't be functional prisoners at horrible schools just because they live in the wrong place. At risk-schools can also be helped by dropping the student number, especially when over-crowding is a large part of the problem for some of them.

And that's the difference, it seems. You care about your kid. I care about hundreds of kids and how their interactions shape and affect one another. Will some kids think it's strange to see Little Suzie with autism in their honors English class? You bet. But Little Suzie is learning about a hell of a lot better in that room than she would be in a pure sped classroom.

Not a teacher now, but I am a tutor, and I was on track toward teaching and just flat-out simply couldn't handle the parents or the waste I saw around me. I care about how well schools work, and want them to work better. Besides-- I home school my kid.

Will Little Billy get frustrated when he's sitting in a math class and he learned how to solve quadratics by factoring on the first day of the lesson but the teacher spends 3 whole days on it? Sure. But the rest of the class benefits a great deal when they hear Billy explain things in a new/different way than what the teacher said (supplemented peer support is infinitely more effective than pure instruction), assuming Little Billy isn't a total asshole who refuses to help his peers.

Or assuming Little Billy isn't ruthlessly tormented by his peers and finds his ability to interact with them stunted because he's simply that much smarter than they are.

And brain drain? White flight is real, y'all. Academic achievement works best for everyone in a well-balanced environment with both big and small fish.

White flight's real, but I'm curious where you see the idea that academic achievement works best when it's a well-balanced environment. Other nations have had exceptional success by separating kids out more in their ability-groups-- the smartest are ostracized for being jerks, not for being smart, because their relative difference is smaller. They are still able to interact and help each other, but at the same time, the mediocre-to-bad students are taught at their level, and some kid's gonna get it right away, and you're still left with the kids who "get it" helping those who don't. I'm in favor of broader geographic areas, and in mixing neighborhoods more than we do-- but white flight is already so rampant, I'd like to see more black flight, and more Hispanic flight. Those are the schools most in need of an ability to dodge, to get *OUT* of dangerous areas, to get *OUT* of the neglected schools. I'm fine with prioritizing to encourage diversity of students, because I do believe that exposure is a net positive.

If all of your strongest students leave because their parents are the only ones who can afford to put their kids in other schools, you leave all your weak students without any peer support and all your strong students without any additional reinforcement of content.

If charter schools and private schools were vouchered, then the poorer parents would be able to get their kids out of trash environments. Opposition to those programs aren't based on helping students-- it's based mostly on helping the Union.

And we're back on education in this thread again. We really should have an education thread for all this crap.

Education and unions are a relevant point of Presidential politics, especially insofar as they intersect the SCOTUS.

[Blubbartron]

There may be an obvious answer to this but are you against homeowners associations as well? Should someone who buys a condo or whatever be able to refuse paying association fees that contribute to the overall upkeep of their neighborhood because they don't agree with the way the money is being used? It's their money, after all, they shouldn't be forced to spend it in a way they don't agree with.

Yes, I'm absolutely against HOAs. A homeowner is responsible for their own property, and they have the right to do whatever the fuck they want on their property that is legal with respect to local/state/federal laws. I don't even have to get into the predatory nature of HOAs, or how they insist on privacy-invading bullshit like forcing you to keep your garage door or curtains open.

[Marootsoobutsu]

There may be an obvious answer to this but are you against homeowners associations as well? Should someone who buys a condo or whatever be able to refuse paying association fees that contribute to the overall upkeep of their neighborhood because they don't agree with the way the money is being used? It's their money, after all, they shouldn't be forced to spend it in a way they don't agree with.

Depends.

If the HOA exists for common usage things (exterior things in Condos, for example), but doesn't restrict interior, I'm fine.

If it's a non-condo HOA, it really depends. I'm in one now, but 100% of its dues go toward a neighborhood park that is maintained by the HOA, our common electricity bill for street lamps that were put in beyond city/state requirements, things like that. Other than requiring the absolute bare minimum of home presentation (lawns need at least something like a semblance of care paid them, can't just leave rusting vehicles out for months at a time, etc...), where the one thing can affect the property values of others, it has no impact on what I can do with my home. So, no problem with it.

An HOA, though, that restricts more than that, I have a pretty big problem with, especially since my wife works with an HOA management company, and man... the horror stories. You do NOT want people with no investment in your home have any say on what you can or cannot do with it. It's freaking nightmarish what some of these HOAs get into.

Edit: And if my HOA were trying to support a politician or political cause, I'd have an ENORMOUS problem with such expenditures.

[Fiye]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/31/us...-abortion.html

Donald J. Trump said on Wednesday that women who seek abortions should be subject to “some form of punishment” if the procedure is banned in the United States, further elevating Republican concerns that his explosive remarks about women could doom the party in the fall.

Good god this guy keeps making Ted Cruz looking better somehow.

[Niiro]

or how they insist on privacy-invading bullshit like forcing you to keep your garage door or curtains open.

I wonder how long you'd have to walk around the house naked before they'd just be like "ya know what nevermind."

[Psion]

or try sending them the bill for the excess electricity spent on heating/cooling the house...

for what it's worth, im against both HOA and unions forcing non-union workers to pay up for them. i dont like the can of worms opened by private entities being able to force you to pay for their services when you haven't even signed up for their goods. it makes sense on a governmental scale because your taxes cover a vast array of things, some of which you do benefit from. it's sorta like paying for cable TV. you don't benefit from all those channels, because who has the time to watch hundreds of channels all at the same time? but you do benefit from the service, and you pay for the bundle.

[Ksandra]

There may be an obvious answer to this but are you against homeowners associations as well? Should someone who buys a condo or whatever be able to refuse paying association fees that contribute to the overall upkeep of their neighborhood because they don't agree with the way the money is being used? It's their money, after all, they shouldn't be forced to spend it in a way they don't agree with.

HOAs are a completely different ballgame imo, and should be heavily restricted to community costs (ie. maintenance for the pools, etc.).

If charter schools and private schools were vouchered, then the poorer parents would be able to get their kids out of trash environments. Opposition to those programs aren't based on helping students-- it's based mostly on helping the Union.

I want to see some links that explain how schools actually work in your state. Parents do not pay for kids to go to charter schools in California. And most of what you've whined (and I don't agree with for the most part) has very little to do with unions and very much to do with NCLB and the Department of Ed.

[notorious bum]

This thread has turned into a hub for old and busted neoliberal talking points.


But, look at this bish do work:

https://www.propublica.org/article/h...s-over-secrecy

[Marootsoobutsu]

HOAs are a completely different ballgame imo, and should be heavily restricted to community costs (ie. maintenance for the pools, etc.).



I want to see some links that explain how schools actually work in your state. Parents do not pay for kids to go to charter schools in California. And most of what you've whined (and I don't agree with for the most part) has very little to do with unions and very much to do with NCLB and the Department of Ed.

Most charters would be/are free; my state union has vehemently fought against charters, and vouchers. However, private schools are not free, and can pick up a lot of the slack, especially if they are vouchered for the poor. I'm delighted you dismiss it as whining, though, as if they aren't legitimate concerns. I'm not even a little surprised you disagree, but c'mon.

NCLB has a whole host of problems I hate, and I hate the Department of Education for the most part, as well. My state's union has heavily supported the DoE, though to its credit (and most unions credits), they hate NCLB. At the same time, the NCLB was inevitable given so many Teachers' Unions resisting anything resembling accountability. NCLB is horrible policy, and it's the wrong answer to the wrong problem. But something like it was inevitable with the way too many teachers unions behave.

[Gredival]

But the general matchups consistently show that Bernie is more electable. The only issue comes when the republicans Nominate Kasich, in which he flat out destroys Hillary across the board and gives Sanders a run for his money. You act as though Bernie is running third party.

How many times are you going to ignore me when I post this exact same response as to why this argument is bullshit, then try to bring it up again a page later like we all just forgot you got called out on it before?

1. Head to head polling this far out has empirically little predictive value
2. National polls don't matter, what matters is winning in swing states
3. Numbers reflect exposure (including negative attacks) for Hillary and not Bernie

Eh, I've seen plenty of attacks on him- he's been getting them from both the GOP and Hillary.

You can either play the "His numbers will go up with better media exposure, but the establishment is burying him to help Hillary" card or the "He is the target of a bunch of attacks (which means he gets tons of airtime, just like Trump)" card. But not both.

While I agree Bernie supporters play a very dangerous game of chicken by not voting for Hillary in the general, it is the very attitude of "You're either with us or you're against us" that is going to make them stay at home in the first place.

The person that declares "I'm voting for Bernie in November no matter what happens" has already chosen against.

[thetruepandagod]

There may be an obvious answer to this but are you against homeowners associations as well? Should someone who buys a condo or whatever be able to refuse paying association fees that contribute to the overall upkeep of their neighborhood because they don't agree with the way the money is being used? It's their money, after all, they shouldn't be forced to spend it in a way they don't agree with.

Dear lord are there actually people FOR HOA? I was unaware that people enjoyed paying for the privilege of being micromanaged by anal retentive fuckwits who flip shit over grass length, home color, mailbox size, guest visitation hours, street parking, and an outright ban on signs in your yard.... including a For Sale sign.

[Niiro]

Sometimes I like to fantasize about living in a place that uses a runoff ballot and touch myself.

[Zetanio]

Sometimes I like to fantasize about living in a place that uses a runoff ballot and touch myself.

:\

[Pirian]

Dear lord are there actually people FOR HOA? I was unaware that people enjoyed paying for the privilege of being micromanaged by anal retentive fuckwits who flip shit over grass length, home color, mailbox size, guest visitation hours, street parking, and an outright ban on signs in your yard.... including a For Sale sign.

Long winded anecdote about when I was an asshole and a HOA would have been useful:

Spoiler: show

As an undergrad I rented a 5 bedroom house for a year with a few people in a somewhat nice neighborhood that had no HOA. We almost got all the way through the lease without cutting the grass. It was mostly because we were under the impression that it was going to be taken care of by the people that rented us the house, but after a few calls to them with reassurances that someone would be out and no one showing up we gave up on them. By this point it was well into summer and we were not going to buy a lawn mower to cut the grass for what would only amount to a handful of times because the renting company was turning out to be a real pain in the ass and none of us had the intentions of renewing for another year. We tried to get some kids to mow it that had come and solicited to us a few times, but they ultimately never showed up, and all the while our grass got taller and taller. Eventually we finally did get a neighbor to cut it but that was all the way into September and I think he had to cut it a total of 2 times before the grass stopped its seasonal growth. The worst part was that the house literally across the street from us was for sale, and they would come ask us to cut it and we would tell them that someone would be out to cut it because most of the that was the impression we were under.

In this neighborhood there was no through traffic, kids played in the streets, and the people were all very friendly. The neighborhood was a good neighborhood, it just lacked a HOA for some reason, and this resulted in them having little-to-no recourse to force us to cut our grass. HOA fees can suck, but when you sometimes have a shitty neighbor like us then it may be your only recourse.

[Xantavia]

Dear lord are there actually people FOR HOA? I was unaware that people enjoyed paying for the privilege of being micromanaged by anal retentive fuckwits who flip shit over grass length, home color, mailbox size, guest visitation hours, street parking, and an outright ban on signs in your yard.... including a For Sale sign.

I got a kick out of hearing how my brother got a notice from his HOA for something like having his garbage cans out after 6pm the day of pick-up because he had some kind of emergency meeting at his school. And yet, the house next to his has been abandoned for 7 years (I think), and the association can't be bothered to do stuff like have the lawn mowed. The peeling paint on it and broken windows obviously don't help his cul-de-sac's appearance either.

[Minions]

Long winded anecdote about when I was an asshole and a HOA would have been useful:

Spoiler: show

As an undergrad I rented a 5 bedroom house for a year with a few people in a somewhat nice neighborhood that had no HOA. We almost got all the way through the lease without cutting the grass. It was mostly because we were under the impression that it was going to be taken care of by the people that rented us the house, but after a few calls to them with reassurances that someone would be out and no one showing up we gave up on them. By this point it was well into summer and we were not going to buy a lawn mower to cut the grass for what would only amount to a handful of times because the renting company was turning out to be a real pain in the ass and none of us had the intentions of renewing for another year. We tried to get some kids to mow it that had come and solicited to us a few times, but they ultimately never showed up, and all the while our grass got taller and taller. Eventually we finally did get a neighbor to cut it but that was all the way into September and I think he had to cut it a total of 2 times before the grass stopped its seasonal growth. The worst part was that the house literally across the street from us was for sale, and they would come ask us to cut it and we would tell them that someone would be out to cut it because most of the that was the impression we were under.

In this neighborhood there was no through traffic, kids played in the streets, and the people were all very friendly. The neighborhood was a good neighborhood, it just lacked a HOA for some reason, and this resulted in them having little-to-no recourse to force us to cut our grass. HOA fees can suck, but when you sometimes have a shitty neighbor like us then it may be your only recourse.

If they cared so much, they should have offered to mow it for you. I'm sure you would have been more than happy to agree, and both of you would have benefited.