2016 USA Presidential election thread I: The warm-up

[Churchill]

A shorter while ago the British left, and through a combination of cultural guilt and a "we need to get the fuck out of here" mentality, set up Israel and pretty much pissed off everyone.

Isn't this more accurately described as, "Because people of Jewish descent were persecuted, along with people of other races, creeds, and sexuality, the Allied Powers decided to give them a place of their own so they couldn't be persecuted any longer."

The Allied Powers chose Palestine because Zionist Lobbies (yes, they existed even in the early 1900s) had been lobbying the British and other Western Governments since WWI (we're talking WWII) to get the Palestinians out of Palestine.

The Allied Powers obliged in doing this, and Zionist death squads marched over Palestine (read: all of Israel) killing any Palestinians who showed opposition to having their homes confiscated in the name of Zionist Manifest Destiny.

[some stuff happens]

Arabs still hate Israel for the most part but deal with the situation in different ways. Some sue for peace, some bitch about it.

The Palestinians the whole time are like what the fuck is going on? Fuck this noise.

Yes, Arabs deal with it in different ways because they don't yet have the capability to back a nuclear powered, psychotic Israel who has the backing of the Western worlds military forces.

In the end, the Israels are justified in being pissed. The Palestinians are justified in being pissed.

I would disagree that Israeli's are justified in being pissed.

Are slave owners justified in being pissed because slaves sometimes killed their masters?

[kuronosan]

You know it's bad when Church has to point out how full of shit your revisionist crap is.

[Xantavia]

Also, I'm getting more depressed about a brokered Republican convention, as I see Cruz potentially walking away with the nomination. While I see Hillary curb stomping him in the general, it just makes me sick to my stomach thinking I'll have to see Cruz's face on the news every fucking day until the election is over.

C'mon, how can you not love this face.

[ringthree]

Isn't this more accurately described as, "Because people of Jewish descent were persecuted, along with people of other races, creeds, and sexuality, the Allied Powers decided to give them a place of their own so they couldn't be persecuted any longer."

The Allied Powers chose Palestine because Zionist Lobbies (yes, they existed even in the early 1900s) had been lobbying the British and other Western Governments since WWI (we're talking WWII) to get the Palestinians out of Palestine.

The Allied Powers obliged in doing this, and Zionist death squads marched over Palestine (read: all of Israel) killing any Palestinians who showed opposition to having their homes confiscated in the name of Zionist Manifest Destiny.

Yeah, that's not a totally biased view of what happened, that completely leaves out, oh, you know, the Holocaust. But hey! Whatever we need to do to demonize the Jews and Israel.

Yes, Arabs deal with it in different ways because they don't yet have the capability to back a nuclear powered, psychotic Israel who has the backing of the Western worlds military forces.

Yeah, the Arabs never attacked Israel prior to Israel's nuclear capability... oh wait, that is EXACTLY WHY Israel was forced to develop a nuclear capability.

But hey, when you are describing an entire state as "psychotic", who needs reality, right?

I would disagree that Israeli's are justified in being pissed.

Are slave owners justified in being pissed because slaves sometimes killed their masters?

God damn, you love some hyperbole. So far you have ignored the Holocaust, called the entire state of Isreal psychotic, and then compared them to slave owners. I totally see we are going to get a reasonable discussion here.

I don't know what allows someone to be "justified" in being pissed, but being invaded multiple times with the intention of wiping a state off the face of the earth probably qualifies.

Notice, in my comment, I didn't even really pick sides, and I suggested that moving forward would require people to recognize the differences and try to deal with reality instead of trying to find some point where some group of people was specifically to blame.

Honestly, people like you have no interest in peace. You just want the state of Israel to be gone. You don't use hyperbole like that if you are interested in anything less than the removal of Israel.

[ringthree]

You know it's bad when Church has to point out how full of shit your revisionist crap is.

Revisionist? How so?

The real funny thing I have found is the fact that some people have an acute understanding of the world before Israel (except you know Britian's involvement), but know nothing (or choose to ignore) the period between the creation of the state, and the current state of the occupation.

[Churchill]

Let me get this straight

Step 1: Get holocausted (which I mentioned) by the SS
Step 2: Lobby Western Governments
Step 3: Form Zionist SS and holocaust Palestinians
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit

[ringthree]

Let me get this straight

Step 1: Get holocausted (which I mentioned) by the SS
Step 2: Lobby Western Governments
Step 3: Form Zionist SS and holocaust Palestinians
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit

Yep, no hyperbole there. No agenda either.

/sigh

I am curious, what do you think is a decent alternative to achieve peace? I don't we will be far apart.

[Ksandra]

It should be noted that Britian is really good at fucking shit up as they leave. See also: 'murica

We really should just give ourselves back at this point.

C'mon, how can you not love this face.

Can't unsee.

[ringthree]

Well, at least the US and Canada get along for the most part. Except for those few times we invaded them.

[Salodin]

What does the holocaust have to do with Palestine, other than give Jews an excuse to be given a place to call home?

[dasva]

So wait am I reading this right. The holocaust is an eternal get out of jew jail free card?

[ringthree]

What does the holocaust have to do with Palestine, other than give Jews an excuse to be given a place to call home?

Pretty much that. That's all. I just don't think you can ignore it when you are discussing the creation of Israel.

[ringthree]

So wait am I reading this right. The holocaust is an eternal get out of jew jail free card?

No one said anything close to that. Though, that reading of what was said, I believe, shows your hand.

[ringthree]

So again I ask, what is a decent proposal to achieve peace?

[Salodin]

I don't know, but I do know the Palestinians have the right to be just a littleeee more upset over all this than the Israelites, imo. From my pov though the problem has gone on for too long, to the point where it's no longer a "well it was originally our land!" problem.. The only real solution is to let bygones be bygones but that'll never happen, so we'll just go along until some side does something so over the line that war starts and we finish it once and for all.

[dasva]

No one said anything close to that. Though, that reading of what was said, I believe, shows your hand.

I was being a bit hyperbolic because you brought it up as if it actually meant anything in a discussion about current middle east which shows your hand

[Andalusian girls]

So again I ask, what is a decent proposal to achieve peace?

the endless historical guilt assignment tends to ignore that this is the only question that matters now. all those Zionists that urged for the formation of the Jewish state are dead, all the leaders of the Arab countries that invaded Israel when she declared independence are dead, all the British who ate scones as their empire ripped itself apart are dead.

we are living in the world our fathers left us and in that world Israel is a fact and whether or not it should have come into being is as irrelevant as whether or not the United States should have taken California and the west from Mexico or whether or not France should have incorporated Burgundian lands after Charles the Bold was killed at Nancy.

establishing a lasting peace between a Palestinian state and Israel is the only goal worth pursuing on the matter. anything that gets in the way of that is counterproductive.

[ringthree]

I was being a bit hyperbolic because you brought it up as if it actually meant anything in a discussion about current middle east which shows your hand

What? Come on you can do better than that. I was specifically responding to a post that neglected to mention the Holocaust in the creation of Israel.

I understand that this discussion is difficult at times. I just think that the narrative is more than just "Palestinians = good. Israel = evil."

[ringthree]

the endless historical guilt assignment tends to ignore that this is the only question that matters now. all those Zionists that urged for the formation of the Jewish state are dead, all the leaders of the Arab countries that invaded Israel when she declared independence are dead, all the British who ate scones as their empire ripped itself apart are dead.

we are living in the world our fathers left us and in that world Israel is a fact and whether or not it should have come into being is as irrelevant as whether the United States should have taken California and the west from Mexico or France should have incorporated Burgundian lands.

establishing a lasting peace between a Palestinian state and Israel is the only goal

Definitely. 100% agree. And I understand that this is a criticism of myself as well as pro-Palestinian sides.

[dasva]

What? Come on you can do better than that. I was specifically responding to a post that neglected to mention the Holocaust in the creation of Israel.

I understand that this discussion is difficult at times. I just think that the narrative is more than just "Palestinians = good. Israel = evil."

Except you did so in response to that exact thing being mentioned for that exact reason and then tried to make it out like what that person hadn't said that and was instead demonizing jews.... so pray tell what exactly was the point then if not to go further than that? I mean is it really hard to figure out that it sounded like you were trying to reach farther or the very least disagree without actually disagreeing?