2016 USA Presidential election thread I: The warm-up

[Xantavia]

I would have voted for Sanders. I'll probably vote Stein. I don't care about people telling me my vote counts. I'm not going to vote for someone I don't like just because it's the preferable option. My vote will count to me if I vote for Stein.

No, no, no. It is too important to vote your conscience this election, but we swear next time it will be the safe thing to do. If you supported Sanders, her Majesty is entitled to your vote. Because somehow, radical change is never going to happen. Unless Trump wins, then everything will change immediately. You, personally, will be at fault if things don't go Clinton's way.

[Fiye]

When radical change occurs in a democracy, it is accepted by 51% of the population. That is not radical by any means.

[Gredival]

Because somehow, radical change is never going to happen. Unless Trump wins, then everything will change immediately.

It is a lot easier to move right than left. Just compare the impact of Bush 43 to Obama.

Part of the reason for this is that the Republicans' political positions are served by the government doing nothing, so obstructionism naturally helps them more than if it were the Democrats blocking a Republican President. To tack onto that, because the Democrats are ostensibly the party that cares about the operation of the government, especially those who rely on the safety net, so they can't just refuse to engage with the Republicans.

It is too important to vote your conscience this election, but we swear next time it will be the safe thing to do.

It is never ethically permissible to vote your conscience in a zero-sum system over voting for the superior of the two viable choices.

^ FTFY

Oh and before people try to object to this statement that has already been repeatedly qualified in this thread, I'll drop a new warrant for this argument. This entire book.

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9704.html

[Blubbartron]

Are you really suggesting that Bush 43 was responsible for the country moving to the right instead of, y'know, the largest and most successful terrorist attack in recorded history?

[Gredival]

Are you really suggesting that Bush 43 was responsible for the country moving to the right instead of, y'know, the largest and most successful terrorist attack in recorded history?

I am suggesting that the sheer mechanics of legislation impedes progress. This hurts the party that wants to change things, i.e. the Democrats. Insofar as the Republicans occasionally want to UNDO things in addition to preventing change, they are similarly impeded. However much of the Republican agenda is accomplished by simply gumming everything up.

[Blubbartron]

I can agree with that. The very basics of the differences between the right and left is that the left thinks change is usually good, and the right thinks change is usually bad. So yeah, obstructing legislation of all kinds is very much in the mindset of conservatives.

[Qeomash]

Are you really suggesting that Bush 43 was responsible for the country moving to the right instead of, y'know, the largest and most successful terrorist attack in recorded history?

We would've shifted right under his presidency regardless. We would've invaded Iraq during his presidency regardless.

It is never ethically permissible to vote your conscience in a zero-sum system over voting for the superior of the two viable choices.

And I'd argue voting your conscience in this system is all we have. Things will never change if we only ever vote for the lesser of the two evils.

But, then again, I have the luxury of living in a state that is not a swing state. If I did, my conscious would have me vote Clinton. I do not live in a swing state, and Trump will win this state without running a single ad or thinking about the state at all. So I will still vote my conscious and not vote for Clinton or Trump.

[Fiye]

http://gawker.com/dnc-communications...icl-1784191906

Damn DNC.

[Greatguardian]

edit: disregard

[Gredival]

And I'd argue voting your conscience in this system is all we have. Things will never change if we only ever vote for the lesser of the two evils.

Would you say that things didn't change under Clinton 42 compared to Bush 41 and Reagan? Or Obama vs. Bush 43?

[Qeomash]

Would you say that things didn't change under Clinton 42 compared to Bush 41 and Reagan? Or Obama vs. Bush 43?

Things got better on some fronts, and things got worse on others. More things typically get better under Democrats than they do under Republicans. Many things will improve under Hillary, or as you like to argue, will stay improved. But many others (privacy and transparancy issues), will continue to get worse.

[Blubbartron]

This link has just recently been floating around a couple facebook friends. A few things in it I was aware of, but there's a LOT of shit in here. I'd like to see some secondary sources, but the connections between pardons and campaign donations (to both Bill and Hillary over the years) is extremely damning.

http://buzzpo.com/anonymous-blew-lid...llary-clinton/

[archibaldcrane]

Gotta be honest, I stopped here

"Electing her means allowing someone ten times worse that Barack Obama ever dreamed of being make the decisions that will likely ruin our nation."

[Melena]

People seem to think four years of trump is reversible when in fact his Supreme Court pick(s) are going to have a negative effect on policy for a good 20 years.

[Ragnus]

That's exactly what I'm saying to almost everyone when I tell them I'm a one issue voter this year. RGB is knocking on death's door and Scalia's seat is still open. I don't want a 6/3 stack in the conservative favor for the next two to three decades.

[archibaldcrane]

People seem to think four years of trump is reversible when in fact his Supreme Court pick(s) are going to have a negative effect on policy for a good 20 years.

The smug self-satisfaction of voting for Jill Stein lasts a lifetime though.

[Ragnus]

Lasted about two weeks for me after I did it in 2012 when she failed to get a significant vote count anywhere.

[tyven]

The smug self-satisfaction of voting for Jill Stein lasts a lifetime though.

UP ARROW

[kisada]

that's so good

[Gredival]

Kaine killed it apparently

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...h-clinton.html