2016 USA Presidential election thread I: The warm-up

[Marootsoobutsu]

I call bullshit. They still won't vote for Carson after Obama. You may know a lot of racists that are union-based dems... sir, I live in Texas, and holy fuck pretty much almost all of the R's here ( as well as the deep south states) are racist as fuck. Carson would be the only conservative I would even be able to STAND in the WH... and that's grudgingly. He's honestly pretty good on views, except when it came to social ones...he was pretty empty...and it was like 'Which side could get to him first'...and all the conservative pricks got to him first ( I.E. Walk into prison straight and come out gay ).

There are more Republicans in Texas who are NOT cross-burning (or any other type of) racist. I'm not saying the Rs don't have more racists-- they probably do, especially in the South. But racism isn't all R, not by a long shot-- the biggest issue is that the loudest-mouthed racists tend to also be the loudest-mouthed political "HEY LET ME TELL YOU MY OPINION". And there are enough non-racists that the Solid South will remain pretty solidly Red... it'd pretty much take a gay, Jewish-black-Irish Catholic/Atheist Republican running against a blue-dog white-male Democrat to change that.


Re: Davis-- she shouldn't be in jail, but she also needs to let her underlings handle that part of her job, and just get back to bidniss. She's not a martyr; she's an attention-whore. I can empathize with not putting your name on something you think is unethical, but if you feel that strongly about it, you need to NOT be a representative of a government that endorses and upholds that practice, whatever it may be. Protest it, make that your story if you absolutely must try to grab some limelight, but you do not have a right to work for the government, and I'm as close to 100% sure as I can be without digging through things that she's in the wrong for not doing so. The closest thing I can think of is from Daniel, with him and his three buddies-- didn't want to eat idol-meat, asked for an exception, got it. They didn't say, "We're hiding the idol meat so no one can." They're just, "We can't do this brah." Did everything else on their job, and didn't like... sit outside the butcher's forbidding their co-workers from chowin' down.

Though it amuses the hell out of me that she's a Democrat, not a Republican.

[Therin]

People are fucking stupid. I'm so tired of hearing that the decision "has no law".

Yes it does. It's the fucking constitution. The interpretation is that gay people are protected citizens and now have the same rights women, blacks, (and next, new immigrants) fought to obtain. It's not "forcing people to go against their faith". It's telling people to be a fucking decent person and do the job they're being paid to do.

If you can't do that job, quit and do something else. Go work in a church, I don't give a shit. Just don't work in a government building and think your religion allows you the right to deny other citizens their rights.

I think I saw it on Facebook of all places, but someone posted "What if you saw this sign" and it showed a paper that read something like "According to my religion I cannot serve you because you aren't wearing head covering, and that is sacred to the Muslim faith. I will assist you once you return with proper attire". On-fucking-point. This is just a paltry political agenda and I'm frankly sick to death of all this stupid "I STAND WITH DAVIS" shit.

No you don't. You stand with bigoted bullshit and she should be removed from her office. You know, the same way people wanted Obama removed from office for violating the constitution and killing "American terrorists".

She's a stupid piece of shit and she should have been fired immediately when she refused to participate in marrying the gay couples, but it's not right to arrest her. If you worked at Wal-Mart as a janitor and suddenly decided that cleaning the toilets were against your religion, you'd be fired -- not arrested. This should have been treated no differently. It should never have even made it to the news. Just get rid of the backwards, stupid employee. Done.

[Gredival]

She's a stupid piece of shit and she should have been fired immediately when she refused to participate in marrying the gay couples, but it's not right to arrest her. If you worked at Wal-Mart as a janitor and suddenly decided that cleaning the toilets were against your religion, you'd be fired -- not arrested. This should have been treated no differently. It should never have even made it to the news. Just get rid of the backwards, stupid employee. Done.

She was jailed for contempt in refusing to obey a court order. What she actually did or refused to do is irrelevant.

[Rooney]

Also as an elected official she can't be fired, only impeached.

[Byrthnoth]

Stick that wench in a peach, then!

[Tyche]

She's a stupid piece of shit and she should have been fired immediately when she refused to participate in marrying the gay couples, but it's not right to arrest her. If you worked at Wal-Mart as a janitor and suddenly decided that cleaning the toilets were against your religion, you'd be fired -- not arrested. This should have been treated no differently. It should never have even made it to the news. Just get rid of the backwards, stupid employee. Done.

It's so much more incredibly complicated than that. I gave pretty detailed updates In the other thread. Here's a brief synopsis of how it went down and why firing her will be next to impossible.

So I'm posting this because I think it's the farthest a challenge to Obergefell has gotten thus far.

Two clerks in Kentucky have refused to give out marriage licenses, most notably, Kim Davis out of Rowan County. It's the city that Moorehead University sits. A relatively liberal town for east Kentucky. After the Obergerfell ruling, Kim Davis waited to issue licenses. Then she outright refused to issue licenses and denied licenses to opposite sex couples as well as same sex couples to avoid discrimination. She was, as expected, sued by the ACLU via some same sex and opposite sex couples. The case went in front of a federal judge who ruled against her, however, he stayed his decision until August 31st so she would have time to take it up with a Federal Appeals court. Well, on the 20th, a day after the judge issued the stay on the ruling, Kim Davis filed an emergency motion saying that issuing licenses to gays would "irreparably burden her conscience". Well, a few hours ago, the appeals court issued a decision, and as you would expect, the appeals court upheld the initial ruling, ordering her to issue licenses to everyone. So, at this point, her last appeal chance falls at the feet of the SCOTUS. Full circle. She's already ignored SCOTUS and a federal judge. I can't imagine she will comply with the appeals court. I'm hoping they don't stay their decision to allow her to appeal that decision to the SCOTUS. At this point I hope they refuse to stay the decision and she refuses to comply and she's arrested. That would be justice for tying up our legal system for 2 months to fight a hopeless battle in court.

TL:DR
kentucky clerk ignores SCOTUS, get sued
loses lawsuit by ACLU, doesn't care, doesn't issue licenses, appeals decision
loses federal appeal, can only appeal to SCOTUS now.

http://www.wbko.com/home/headlines/A...323006361.html

They plan to file for a stay of the decision with SCOTUS as early as tomorrow. Unfortunately for them, Elena Kagan is the justice in charge of the 6th circuit and would have to issue said stay. Kagan is an Obama appointee that obviously ruled with the majority in the Obergefell case.

In a not-so-suprising move, Kim Davis is again refusing to issue marriage licenses this morning. To tally...

Ignored SCOTUS, got sued
lost lawsuit, yet ignored federal judge
appealed
lost appeal, ignored appeals court

Her son is the deputy clerk, so he ain't doing shit either. She's actually holed up in her office right now and refuses to come out. She's making her son handle the clerk duties today...except issuing licenses of course. She wants to be a martyr but she doesn't even have the fortitude to deny the couples herself.

As far as someone else doing the job, she can only be fired by a special session in KY congress, which likely will not happen. I've read that they're A. appealing to SCOTUS Judge Kagan for a stay (lol) and B. seeking clarification on the ruling to find out if she, herself, has to issue the licenses.

Updates.

As expected, on Friday, county clerk Kim Davis appealed to the Supreme Court for an extension of the stay issued by a federal judge that was set to expire today. Justice Elena Kagan, in charge of the 6th circuit, brought the case to the other justices to be heard. Three justices other than Kagan would have had to agree to hear the case. She didn't get those three justices so the case was denied and Kim Davis will have to begin issuing licenses tomorrow.

She is not, as you can imagine, expected to actually do so. She will likely face contempt charges and potentially be issued heavy fines or, likely what her lawyers want, be shipped off to jail. Davis has stated she is wiling to go to jail before she issues licenses. I think her attorneys are salivating at the thought of a middle aged white Christian woman being hauled off to jail for standing up for her beliefs. She also has an investigation being brought by the attorney generals office for official misconduct. The only way she can be fired is through impeachment by the Kentucky legislature, which is not set to resume til January.

[Kanriel]

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/Poll...5-35c0cdab26c6

Trump leads Clinton, Sanders, and Biden in head-to-head for general election. Even though it's a generic country-wide poll, I'd argue it's an incredibly bad sign given that the swing states voters are likely to be among those most receptive to his message.

* Trump 45%, Clinton 40%. (There is a 20-point Gender Gap; Trump leads by 18 points among seniors.)
* Trump 44%, Sanders 40%. (Trump leads by 10 among independents and by 6 among moderates.)
* Trump 44%, Biden 42%. (Trump leads by 10 among the best educated; Biden leads by 17 among the least educated.)
* Trump 44%, Gore 41%. (Trump leads by 12 among men and by 18 among voters age 50+.)

This is only a really bad sign for Clinton/Biden/Gore. Sanders still has recognition issues and can jump a fair bit more. Anyone who doesn't know Clinton, Biden and Gore probably aren't voting anyway. The fact that Sanders is even with them in numbers either means that Trump is that disliked by a significant portion of the voters, Sanders is already that popular with a significant portion of voters, or some combination of the two.

Also, the whole best/least educated gap with Trump and Biden is...confounding.

[Sho]

Donald Trump is just steaming along, lol. John Kasich starting to rise in polls.

Oh my god, I can't wait for the CNN GOP Debate. It might be bigger than the FOX debate, which already set some records. Kasich and Fiorina both have a big shot to win big and steal a lot of Bush's electorate. Carson also has a big shot as well. Considering the panelists who will be fielding the questions (mainly Hugh Hewitt), this may be the night Trump actually takes a big hit as well on foreign policy. If there was a debate to watch, this one will be it.

If Trump survives the CNN debate, he will be a man made of teflon.

[Tyrath]

Based on his last debate I don't see how he won't survive.

There ain't no getting offa this train we're on!

[Sho]

Based on his last debate I don't see how he won't survive.

There ain't no getting offa this train we're on!

Well, now that the debates will start to heat up and people get dropped, panelists will start asking hard hitters. Donald Trump really has been getting by on good graces, then question dodging and mudslinging with Bush and Clinton. Hugh Hewitt will be that one guy who will not shy away from asking straight up tough man, "do you really want to be president?" type questions. The best part about Hugh is the fact that he'll be completely objective, so that means everyone will be equally blasted by hard hitters from him.

[Marootsoobutsu]

This is only a really bad sign for Clinton/Biden/Gore. Sanders still has recognition issues and can jump a fair bit more. Anyone who doesn't know Clinton, Biden and Gore probably aren't voting anyway. The fact that Sanders is even with them in numbers either means that Trump is that disliked by a significant portion of the voters, Sanders is already that popular with a significant portion of voters, or some combination of the two.

Also, the whole best/least educated gap with Trump and Biden is...confounding.

Why is it confounding?

[Kanriel]

Why is it confounding?

That the best educated people are voting for Trump? Does this really need explanation?

[Marootsoobutsu]

That the best educated people are voting for Trump? Does this really need explanation?

It shouldn't be surprising?

Democrats have a huge lead in the 18-25 group, MANY of whom are still pursuing their BA/BS. Meanwhile, Republicans make up the majority of the 35+ year olds with a BA/BS or better-- most of whom were Democrats in college. Republicans win converts when taxes, mortgages and the like outweigh idealism for voting purposes, and when balancing budgets with dependents becomes a reality.

Edit: still still, still.

[Kanriel]

But it's Trump. He's a living parody of a candidate. One would think the more educated people would see through this.

[Sho]

That the best educated people are voting for Trump? Does this really need explanation?

It doesn't. There is something truly disturbing when you are agreeing with a man who has so far ran his campaign on pure rhetoric & name calling with not much else.

The people who like Sanders are almost opposite the majority of people who like Trump right now -- people (on both sides of the isle) who are simply fed up with politics as usual. However, the difference is, we know what Sanders is about, due to him being almost terrifyingly honest (which as a liberal, is a bad thing when trying to cater to moderates and centrists). We have no clue what Trump is about other than boastful remarks of "I will make our military the best in the world; no one will mess with us." or "I will take back jobs from Japan, China, Mexico, etc" or "I will go into the Middle East and take their oil" but no real concrete plans on how he will achieve all of this.

People on the right should get nervous when the best and the brightest are going for the facade. He's all of the bad traits of Nixon wrapped in a wanna be Reagan shroud.

[Kanriel]

It doesn't. There is something truly disturbing when you are agreeing with a man who has so far ran his campaign on pure rhetoric & name calling with not much else.

The people who like Sanders are almost opposite the majority of people who like Trump right now -- people (on both sides of the isle) who are simply fed up with politics as usual. However, the difference is, we know what Sanders is about, due to him being almost terrifyingly honest (which as a liberal, is a bad thing when trying to cater to moderates and centrists). We have no clue what Trump is about other than boastful remarks of "I will make our military the best in the world; no one will mess with us." or "I will take back jobs from Japan, China, Mexico, etc" or "I will go into the Middle East and take their oil" but no real concrete plans on how he will achieve all of this.

Precisely. He's pandering to pure sound byte voters. He doesn't have any plans, there's no real thought put into his ideas. One would think the more educated voters would see through this.

Also, hasn't Trump said he'd raise taxes? Thought I saw that in a headline.

[Sho]

BUT NEVA MIND THAT ALL ABOUT THE TRUMP TRAIN CHOO CHOO MOTHERFUCKERS

[Sho]

Precisely. He's pandering to pure sound byte voters. He doesn't have any plans, there's no real thought put into his ideas. One would think the more educated voters would see through this.

Also, hasn't Trump said he'd raise taxes? Thought I saw that in a headline.

He is. Real silent majority voters however, don't vote based on sound bytes alone. They don't do social media or go to rallies, they just go and vote after the cycles are complete and they've gathered enough information about the entire field of potentials.

Yeah, Trump said he's raise taxes on the wealthy (including hedge fund managers) if it meant giving a tax break to the middle class. He's been for the Bush-era tax cuts, but has flip-flopped over it (over not wanting the wealthy to be scared away due to higher taxes). Swiped this from OnTheIssues:

No doubt you work hard for your money--I know I do--and you should be permitted to keep more of it. Anything less creates a disincentive for a strong national work ethic. President Ronald Reagan saw it the same way: "The more government takes in taxes, the less incentive people have to work."

As with most things, President Reagan had it right, But Reagan was merely echoing the economic thoughts of President John F. Kennedy, who had already said, in 1962, "The paradoxical truth is that the tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise revenues in the long run is to cut rates now."

Reagan and Kennedy's views prove that smart tax policy shouldn't be a partisan issue. It should be common sense. If you tax something you get less of it. It's as simple as that. The more you tax work, the less people are willing to work. The more you tax investments, the fewer investments you'll get. This isn't rocket science.

He's always been about taxing the hell out of the wealthy and giving the middle class tax breaks -- he sees higher taxes on the working class as a negative factor that lessens incentive for people to work (which is true).

[Marootsoobutsu]

Enh. I don't see a lot of the most educated-- right, or left-- as being the best and the brightest. In a lot of ways, they are the average and the average. Don't get me wrong-- I value my education, and my own collegiate experience. But at the same time, when I did "Peer reviews" on papers, I was constantly met with comments like, "I'm sure it was a great paper, but I didn't know what most of the words meant." These people graduated with me. I was in a teaching-math class where 100% of the class was group work-- and one person I was in literally could not do basic addition. She got an A on teaching math. Graduating college doesn't mean you're smart. It doesn't mean much of anything, except that you were willing to do the work to graduate college. There ARE people who accidentally get more than they thought, and there are people who are in college, not just to get the degree to get a job, but to further their minds as human beings, and that's great, that's what college is for. To risk the anecdotes one more time, the only Republican I know of from my dad's side (the racist union-Dems), graduated with a degree in botany in the mid 1970s. He is the most close-minded individual I have ever known, has done literally nothing to further his education on that (or any other) subject, and out-right disowned me from the family when I went to college. He currently drives trucks. While there are folks like that on the left as well, it should be noted that these are the folks who still count as "educated."

There are millions of people out there with high school diplomas and AAs and BAs and BSs, who simply have degrees but no education. I suspect there are more Republicans than Democrats in this group-- white middle/upper class suberbian kids are more likely going to college because "Well, that's just what you do" than kids from the streets, and I *think* (but this is personal perception with no data backing it up), that kids of Democrat parents are *more* likely to go to college for the express purpose of exploring ideas and finding themselves and that sort of thing-- they're more likely going to get that education, either because they just recognize its value to escape poverty, or to expand oneself. So it does not surprise me in the slightest bit that there would be many more degree-holding Republicans who would jump on trump: they dislike the establishment every bit as much as college kids-- they just dislike a different part of it. And Trump is giving the finger to the part those degree-holding Republicans scorn.

[notorious bum]

Sounds like Hillary is getting her new firmware upgrade!