2016 USA Presidential election thread I: The warm-up

[Kanriel]

Pretty sure Jesus would advocate for an idealistic communism.

[Marootsoobutsu]

Jesus also said he gave no fucks about money. "Give unto Caeser what is Caeser's." Money means shit all to god, it's a totally man made creation.

You might want to re-read your Bible, as when someone asks Jesus how to get into heaven, he outright states "give up all your worldly possessions and follow me". So yeah, Jesus did say give everything. Again, money is NOTHING to Jesus, by his own words.

And I'm not sure what world you live in, but we've absolutely solved issues and fixed things by voting.

That's what He told one rich man; that's not what He told Zacheus. He told another person to just come and follow Him-- several, in fact; He never told Peter to sell everything-- only to come. He frequently told everyone to give up what was keeping them from God, whether it was money, or family, or sex. But He also hung out with rich people, and told them otherwise-- His famous, "But with God, all things are possible" came after His "It's harder for a rich man to get to heaven than to thread a camel through the eye of a needle" bit. And, it should be noted, He never said money was the root of all evil-- love of money is. Money was useful, and Jesus never said money was bad-- He just simply said, often, to give.

And you're right about paying taxes; I pay mine. And there are things that the government is essential for-- infrastructure, defense, contracts, and disaster relief that would over-run effected charitable possibilities are all examples (it's not an exhaustive list).

I'm also not saying don't vote-- I vote at every election. Voting can be great. I even vote for some social welfare programs in my city. Not because I think Jesus said to, but because the plan itself seems sound, transparent, and easily reverseable if it doesn't work. But then I'm extremely conservative at a federal level and more liberal at a local level.

I'm not big on our current capitalism state. As I said (or may have said in a deleted version...), we are not in a place where the "worker receives his pay." Yes, he's getting what he agrees to, but... he's forced into that pretty hard these days. I would love to see mandated caps on CEO:year+ employee pay ratios, with profit sharing split evenly-- I wouldn't even object to that as a federal mandate. I also would not object to setting a minimum time serving before stock options become available, or restricting their use to a certain time after a C-level officer has left a company.


As for Jesus' ideal society? Dictatorship, with Him at the helm. Past that? I don't see a push for communism; I don't see a push for capitalism. You have a perfect following of God's rules, and neither really comes into play-- neither system is fair, neither system demonstrates, in its idealized form, any messages that I see in the Bible-- giving is important, sacrifice is important, and while He's very much a "From each according to his ability, to each according to his earning, and give to those who don't have enough"-- but, and I cannot stress this enough, from Old Testament and New, other than the tithe (which is commanded), all giving is *voluntary*. It is about the individual doing the right thing. It's about YOUR relationship with God-- always. Jesus told people to give up the things blocking that relationship. If you're right with Him, you'll do right by and to others (though the right He shows may not be what a lot of folks here see as right...). But it's always about *choosing* to do good-- making a deliberate choice to do good instead of evil.

[Ksandra]

Ok Maroo, what about the people/children who are starving today? What about the people/children who are sick today? Saying "oh people should tithe," is not helping them. They need help now.

Have taxes/laws to guarantee the minimal quality of life, then have charity for extras. Make it so tithing are given towards programs such as toys for tots (something not needed to survive, but a great charity regardless). Rather than feeding one person for a day, when they need food everyday to survive.

Having government programs does not take away your ability to volunteer/donate. They are not mutually exclusive.

[Gredival]

Just a note, this thread is naturally going to cover a range of topics, but remember that to stay germane to the election any side discussions, including current religion discussion, needs to be in context of assumed or asserted political stances of candidates/general parties' platforms/etc.

You know why a lot of the people who are most active in food kitchens, blanket programs, housing programs, etc... do NOT use Jesus to invoke more programs from the government?

Because every time the government "does more to help", fewer people are helping.

I have no doubt that a lot of people who personally volunteer and devote their time are religious, though I bet a non-insignificant portion of them are non-religious. And I have no doubt that virtually everyone could do more on a personal level and take more responsibility for taking care of society's most vulnerable.

But is this really a religious argument against government aid though? Yes with bigger government safety nets, people will feel better about not giving their time and/or money because they feel that the poor will be taken care of. But does that mean Jesus would want there to be no safety nets so that people will be compelled to get involved?

You said it yourself, Jesus would say "To give, and to give, and to give, and to keep giving. Your time, your money, your empathy, your effort." So I don't think Jesus would say "Okay you voted for the guy who wants to expand welfare/against the guy that wanted to gut welfare, you're off the hook." No, Jesus wants you to vote for more taxes to benefit the needy WHILE ALSO giving up your free time for yourself to help others.

The fact that people slack off on their personal responsibilities doesn't mean we should slash support to compel them to pick up the slack. That circles back to the standard conservative platform that "Government shouldn't be involved in social welfare because it's not the role of the government. Let charities and people who want to help do it." And it's completely vulnerable to all the regular counter arguments like "It's our moral responsibility to help the suffering."

Not to mention there's a number of problems that can't be solved by charities the way they can be solved by government. Things like Planned Parenthood can't rely on volunteers and donations. Keeping those centers operating, especially in places that are hostile to birth control, requires the government. Things like legalized protections for LGBT can't be given by private parties.

[Ksandra]

what if i want a society that can beat up China and subsidize the existence of fetty wap

Pump for trump.

[Sho]

Pretty sure Jesus would advocate for an idealistic communism.

Maybe outside of the context of the Bible, sure. Essentially he was a man who strove to prove the glory of his God through parables, teachings and performing miracles. Essentially most stories in the Bible aren't for either Capitalistic nor Socialist ideals, but for one to use their God-given talents to help better themselves as well as their fellow man. As mentioned in the Bible (and in this topic), "Render unto Caesar what is Caesars." -- while it does lean to the left to speak this rhetoric, in the Bible it's more attributed to Jesus simply wanting his followers to follow the Law of the Land and pay their taxes when asked. The problem with this is, is that people aren't looking at it in the way it should be looked at -- Jesus (in the Bible) always spoke in a manner that promoted the spiritual, while eschewing material possessions.

Speaking of, I'm really not sure why people never look at Luke 12:13 when they try to paint him as a champion of socialist principles:

13 Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”

14 Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” 15 Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.”

These lines right here should prove that he wasn't in for people to level and redistribute wealth. He was given the chance to actually redistribute wealth between too brothers, but instead rebuked and denounced the brother on the emphasis of greed. However, it continues:

16 And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. 17 He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’

18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’

20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’

21 “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”

This in turn appears to be lines that would prove he was a socialist, but the reality is that he's spreading yet another principle which instead focuses on the spiritual mindset of forgoing hoarding worldly possessions in favor of spreading one's wealth around and giving glory to their God.

[Kanriel]

And combine the two and you understand that he does not place any value in worldly possessions. In one scripture the reason he isn't for stripping someone of their wealth is because the person asking the question is being envious of the other person, and that's the thing Jesus decides to focus on in his response.

Jesus overall seems to favor a "commune", not necessarily marxist communism or anything of the sort, but basically everything is the village and the village is everything sort of thing. Everyone owns everything, and there are no issues with that. An idealistic concept of communism. Totally impossible, but seems to be his preference.

[kuronosan]

Jesus in general never focuses on wealth redistribution but you're incredibly misguided if you think what he was telling people wasn't a lesson in sharing. He wasn't saying "thou shalt not share" so much as saying "yea you shouldn't really give a crap about that there are more important things".

[Serra]

Democrats: No real change to report (Hilldog remains in the 42-47 range; Sanders in the 24-27 range). Worth noting, CNN finds that the majority of Biden's supporters are pulled from Hilldog (around 15 out of his 20%).

Biden's support comes almost entirely from Clinton's camp. Without the vice president in the race, Clinton's numbers climb by 15 percentage points, while Sanders' increase by only 4 points -- giving Clinton a nearly 2-to-1 lead at 57% to 28%, with O'Malley moving up to 2%.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/21/politi...016/index.html

Republicans: Trump is in a post-debate slide, down to 24%, while Fiorina has jumped up to second at 15%. Will be curious to see how long this bump lasts her this time. Carson (14%), Rubio (11%), and Bush (9%) round out the top 5. Walker has fallen all the way to the bottom, getting less than 1%.


Latest poll -- CNN/ORC:http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2015/im...20/dempoll.pdf

[tyven]

finally someone has sacked up and answered the question everyone wants to know

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...11711716216832

[Andalusian girls]

and I thought his judgement couldn't get any worse

[Waraji]

and I thought his judgement couldn't get any worse

I don't care for sports but

[Ragnus]

Alternate article that doesn't immediately try to frame the guy as the world's largest douchebag

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/bu...=fb-share&_r=1

[Serra]

Muslims feel that their religion is very much a part of your public life and what you do as a public official, and that’s inconsistent with our principles and our Constitution.”

Sooooo.. he disqualifies like the entire Republican field (except for like Trump and Fiorina -- and admittedly, I haven't read much about Fiorina, so maybe her too).

[Quicklet]

Seeing no other place to discuss the continuing need for healthcare reform...

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/ex-h...-750-per-pill/
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/bu...ttom-well&_r=0

$13.50 per pill to $750 per pill, says it's still underpriced cuz capitalism. Sanders relinked the story on his page.

Yeah... if there isn't a law against that already, there should be. Or we could get right to the heart of the manner and finish health care reform, but we all know that's not happening for a while.

[Roranora]

Yeah... if there isn't a law against that already, there should be. Or we could get right to the heart of the manner and finish health care reform, but we all know that's not happening for a while.

Yep.

More rage-inducing Rx price data from the NY Times article:

Cycloserine, a drug used to treat dangerous multidrug-resistant tuberculosis, was just increased in price to $10,800 for 30 pills from $500 after its acquisition by Rodelis Therapeutics. Scott Spencer, general manager of Rodelis, said the company needed to invest to make sure the supply of the drug remained reliable.

Daraprim cost only about $1 a tablet several years ago, but the drug’s price rose sharply after CorePharma acquired it. According to IMS Health, which tracks prescriptions, sales of the drug jumped to $6.3 million in 2011 from $667,000 in 2010, even as prescriptions held steady at about 12,700. In 2014, after further price increases, sales were $9.9 million, as the number of prescriptions shrank to 8,821. The figures do not include inpatient use in hospitals.

[Quicklet]

CNN is reporting that Walker is going to get out of the race tonight.

[Rooney]

Daraprim still takes the cake. A 750x increase since ~2010 versus 21x increase for cycloserine. Both cases are still ridiculous.

[The Blackrose]

CNN is reporting that Walker is going to get out of the race tonight.

NYT as well - http://www.nytimes.com/politics/firs...idential-race/

I did not expect him to get reamed this soon, but

[Serra]

C'mon people, if you're going to post news like that, you need to be on top of this shit!