Summoner Blood Pact Damage +% Cap?

[geno3302]

Crit rate is crit rate...
Crit works on flaming crush because it's a hybrid. Crit rate does not do anything for magical BPs. That would be magical crit hit rate.

Double attack is shit for blood pacts. It is not like a weapon skill. When a BP gets DA it adds 1 normal melee hit of damage.

[dasva]

So there's this....

http://cdn.ffxipro.com/images/ss/mid...b18d38993f.jpg

[Sechs]

That's... uh... D:
Ungh...

[dasva]

But wait there's more

http://cdn.ffxipro.com/images/ss/mid...637b92c87c.jpg

[fantasticdan]

Crit rate is crit rate...

And crit rate doesn't do anything for most physical player WS. Maybe all physical/hybrid BPs can, but it's dumb to assume without any real testing. I remember idiots arguing for years that asuran fists could crit, dissector could make blue magic crit, etc. based on anecdotal damage variance, but all that stuff turned out to be false.

[Sechs]

Yes I mean, I'm not saying it's not possible, I'd just like to see some non-abyssea testing =/

[dasva]

Yes I mean, I'm not saying it's not possible, I'd just like to see some non-abyssea testing =/

Why would you go about testing crit rate not in abyssea?

[Sechs]

Because I want to make sure it's not Atmas working in a different way. We've seen a couple of strange behaviours when it comes to Atmas and Pets.
Not like we don't have enough gear with crit+ on them, it would be just as easy to test it outside, and we would be bloody sure the tests' results to be reliable, and not something related to some strange Atma clunkyness.

[Tachi]

I don't have the motivation to verify/confirm myself if "Pet Critical Hit Rate" affects Blood Pacts because, to be honest, I have no doubt it does but if someone has the patience and the right equipments for this, the best way would be to use Rock/Megalith/Crag Throw on TW monsters since the damage are capped. In my case Crag Throw does 5866 on Wild Rabbits and 7919 when it crits (35% dmg increase).

[Prothescar]

those sorts of ranged attacks act strangely. blue magic, for example; normally the spell can't crit if it isn't expressly mentioned in the spell description, just like a WS. Ranged spells like Feather storm and Pinecone bomb, however, can crit normally. Ranged BPs probably function similarly. To alleviate this concern, you'd need to introduce randomization and large sample sizes into the mix by using BPs that can't get a 1-1 damage range (i.e. not a ranged attack).

That said, we know exactly how atmas work and they've been the standard for testing crit rates for a while, don't see why they'd function differently for a pet.

[Sechs]

If a sample has to be made, even a small one like 50 + 50, I don't see what the big deal would be between setup 1 and setup 2.
Setup 2 being with atma, and setup 1 being with naked gear (or gear not affecting pet). 50 samples with Glyphic body +1 (crit rate +12%) and 50 more without.
Pick targets of the same level by checking them with Battlemod up and pick a single hit BP that's not ranged (Spinning Dive maybe? Maybe there's more low level BPs that I can't think of)

Doesn't look like testing with Setup 1 would take more effort than testing with Setup 2 and after such a test we'd all be happy with our newfound knowledge about BP crits.

[Prothescar]

The amount of time spent doing an abyssea test would be significantly less than anything you could do outside of abyssea. the peaks from crits would be more noticeable and more common, sample size necessary to indicate that something has the ability to crit would be much, much smaller.

In abyssea, you'd need 10 casts at most. Outside, you could need up to 100 of them if you get the bad end of the pDIF scale. The atma won't magically cause a non-crit BP to crit unless that BP naturally has the ability to crit, so I'm not seeing the reason for aversion. I'd also like to point out that if all physical Bps could crit, it probably would have been noticed a long time ago and Predator Claws wouldn't have been the go-to for so long.

[Sechs]

so I'm not seeing the reason for aversion.

Would it be so unrealistic that Atma, for some reason, might behave differently with Avatars than it does with players (where if a WS can't naturally crit, it won't crit because of Atma) and enabling BPs to crit even if they cannot naturally do that?
I see this as highly unlikely but not impossible, in the end I'd like to keep this remote possibility out of the testing scenario.

I'd also like to point out that if all physical Bps could crit, it probably would have been noticed a long time ago and Predator Claws wouldn't have been the go-to for so long.

That's exactely the source of my skepticism.
I find it strange that it hasn't been common knowledge all these years and that it was believed only specific BPs could crit.
Has it been an error, a wrong knowledge all this time? Perhaps, it wouldn't be the first time something like this happens to be fair, but that's exactely why I'd love to see some further tests about it so that we can be 100% sure.

[Tachi]

Oh, so the debate isn't even about the equipment but just about if BPs can crit? Any main SMN (I mean those who play the job often) should know they can or at least the BPs we use all the time, it's a difference of like 3~4k vs 7-9k dmg in VD battles for Spinning Dive, Predator Claw and Volt Strike. I don't really see how this "revelation" could benefit other BPs more than Predator Claw, Rush is a terrible BP.

non crit (12~15k average with Dia II and Crimson Howl)
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q...pso00onyle.jpg
crit
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q...psysompmge.jpg

[Byrthnoth]

I also have no doubt that BPs can crit. We can't "prove it" because we don't have real monster pDIF equations, but critting and missing together explain all of the variance I see in my data in the mathy parts.

My sets are not finished yet but atm I do more dmg with Astralwatcher and it's possible to keep the "Lv +2" on BPs if you swap Nirvana > Pet MAB staff 1 sec before the BP goes off, this works about 80% of time with a <wait2> for me but the said increase is fairly minor.

^ This may be a solution to using the staff with Nirvana. If it works with a <wait2> then I'm sure you can idle/precast Nirvana and switch to Keraunos in pet_midcast at some point to gain the effect.

[dasva]

Because I want to make sure it's not Atmas working in a different way. We've seen a couple of strange behaviours when it comes to Atmas and Pets.
Not like we don't have enough gear with crit+ on them, it would be just as easy to test it outside, and we would be bloody sure the tests' results to be reliable, and not something related to some strange Atma clunkyness.

Aside from checks hp what else is weird with atmas and pets? And I wouldn't say it's easier... I mean what's easier than throwing on tons of crit rate and dmg? It makes the crits really obvious and frequent

[Sechs]

So I went and did a small sample test.
Sadly I'm afraid numbers have been broken by some aspect I didn't consider, and will hence be completely useless.
Regardless, here they are, you math guys tell us if there's something useful behind these numbers.


General test settings
Target: Blanched Mandragora, lv 100
BP used: Spinning Dive (1 hit), never dismissed Leviathan
Gear set1: Completely naked, except for Seraphicaller
Gear set2: Completely naked, except for Seraphicaller and Glyphic Doublet +1 (Avatar Crit Hit Rate +12%)

set1:

Spoiler: show

*watersday*
01) 4655
02) 5365
03) 5543
04) 6093
05) 4426
06) 5399
07) 4886
08) 4555
09) 6030
10) 4427
11) 4963
12) 4972
13) 5452
14) 4680
15) 4970
16) 5016
17) 5080
*windsday*
18) 3358
19) 3582
20) 3642
21) 4613
22) 4953
23) 6090
24) 4795
25) 5989
26) 4728
27) 5061
28) 4829
29) 5419
30) 5984
31) 5382
32) 4863
33) 4976
34) 5196
35) 4769
36) 4883
37) 5126
38) 4693
39) 4730
40) 5421
41) 5363
42) 4575
43) 3605
44) 5440
45) 5072
46) 4518
47) 3671
48) 4816
49) 5141
50) 6143

set2:

Spoiler: show

01) 5399
02) 4457
03) 6066
04) 3871
05) 4526
06) 5253
07) 5284
08) 5754
09) 6219
10) 5210
11) 5375
12) 5042
13) 5322
*iceday*
14) 5253
15) 5496
16) 3245
17) 4875
18) 5286
19) 5484
20) 4583
21) 3558
22) 4700
23) 3214
24) 4856
25) 4427
26) 4708
27) 5323
28) 3101
29) 6136
30) 5243
31) 5450
32) 4460
33) 6079
34) 4623
35) 3626
36) 4611
37) 6219
38) 5506
39) 4636
40) 4962
41) 4556
42) 5983
43) 5125
44) 6235
45) 4894
46) 4785
47) 6165
48) 6195
49) 4527
50) 5441

Numbers seem too random for me.
There's gotta be something else other than just crits in there.
First: I considered that BP cannot naturally crit unless you put crit hit rate ear up. That was stupid of me. IF they can crit, of course they have a natural crit rate as well.
Second: I think there's something else. Maybe Avatars have natural Double Attack or something? I can't explain all those differences with just crit.
Third: There's some numbers which are lower than the others, being that Spinning Dive is one hit I don't understand what happened there. Is it really one hit? Or did we just wrongly assumed so all this time?

[Tachi]

Blood Pacts can be Guarded, Shield Blocked and even Parried... Avoid MNK type mobs or make sure your Avatar BP while being behind them.

[Sechs]

Then I guess those 3xxx damage are guard ones.

[Byrthnoth]

Or missed first hits. Avatar BPs are massively weighted towards thefirst hit, like Rudra's. If you see 1500 damage instead of 15000, you probably just missed the first hit.