FFXI Nostalgia/Why did I ever stop playing!?/Let's all go back to 2009/Never forget Kujata Thread

[Anoat]

Is gred considering that all 4 of those LS were all using bots? None of that data means anything unless it's how many times in a blue moon does a non botter claim anything
Obviously there is going to be some distribution in claims when all the shells were using the same bots

Pretending like you contributed anything to claims by being in a hnmls and not botting is hilarious tho

Hey now. Killing Darters before window is contributing!

[mallister]

Hey, we got a nice manifesto out of the deal.

[Cail]

Hey now. Killing Darters before window is contributing!

The best was when they linked and other people weren't paying attention and the the person/people died lol

[Niiro]

Is there a way to stop the music in this thread from auto-playing.

It's annoying when you're already listening to something.

[Niiro]

Also the piano version is strictly inferior to the original.

[Mythe_Seraph]

Also the piano version is strictly inferior to the original.

Pretty sure this was recorded by a BG member who died and it’s in their memory.

[Niiro]

[Gokulo]

Is there a way to stop the music in this thread from auto-playing.

It's annoying when you're already listening to something.

There's a control panel for this at the top of the page

[Insanecyclone]

You can always mute it if it bothers you.

[Zetanio]

Some real whiny bullshit in the dead game thread here.

[arus2001]

You can always mute it if it bothers you.

Unfortunately the setting doesn't preserve between views of the thread or even new pages within, and on my end winds up playing full volume every time.

Anyway, simply trying to block the element wasn't working, so a bit deeper digging found the mp3 itself: https://cdn.bluegartr.com/woozie.mp3

Do whatever in your adblocker and that should hard mute. You'll still see the player up top, though.

[Gredival]

Gred just mad cause he wants to be an uberbitch but no one considers him such cause he is cisbotter scum.

Nah I'm Uncle Tom. I don't bot but I defend the HNM system afterall so both sides revile me.

I agree the community needed exceedingly rare gear to work towards, but dont exalt the HNM community like the big players weren't only the big players because they used any and all out of game means to influence not just the claim on the mob, but sometimes the fight itself too. They are uber cheaters, not uber players.

1. Lockout.

2. The only fights where I could see bots possibly being a positive influence are Khim and Cerb for stuns. Trash rolling into Aery and wiping didn't need bots, they needed to be fundamentally better players.

Gred acting like the rest of the community wouldn't learn and pick up on the strategy for a King fight if they had access to that mob type (and abilities list) more frequently. Get out of here with that crap.

1. Players below the 50% mark would need to be carried, even with the benefit of repetition, and didn't deserve it and were rightfully excluded by the system.

2. Players in the ... let's say 60-80% bracket, probably could have learned to successfully fight Kings with all the advantages 2008+ players had on a mob designed in 2006. And they could have gotten the claims to get that experience if they shut the fuck up and camped instead of whining about how the system was unfair.

Make bitches avoid a spike flail for their Matt fight and I bet you wouldn't be talking all this shit.

There is no ideological contradiction to be had about saying that other things in the game could/should have been harder.

With some exceptions (AV, PW, non-zerg Bahamut) the difficulty of every monster in XI was learning the strategy. Maybe it took a few tries, but with a good group of players no regular content in XI was beyond farm status. Fights tested a few core mechanics and had a base threat level for how hard they hit. Learning King content was no different from learning how to fight non-King content. Kiting KB? Same as kiting Kirin. Getting away from Ixion Lightning Spear? Same as moving away from Odin and Proto-Ultima's super moves.

Nothing about world spawn game play made it special. Everything special about world spawns was the zero-sum server-side hard cap spawn mechanic (i.e. the necessity of competitive camping, and functionally being one wipe and done). That was unique about it, and I've isolated reasons why it was unique in a good way.

Is gred considering that all 4 of those LS were all using bots? None of that data means anything unless it's how many times in a blue moon does a non botter claim anything
Obviously there is going to be some distribution in claims when all the shells were using the same bots

Pretending like you contributed anything to claims by being in a hnmls and not botting is hilarious tho

Lockout. Lockout does not care how fast your bot is. Your bot can act at .0001 seconds from spawn, guess what? You just got screwed when the delay is set to 1.76 seconds to open. My personal experience claiming multiple times without botting and being in shells that botted vs. shells that were explicitly against botting confirms that spamming your claim ability has just as much chance to get screwed and just as much chance to be the first past the delay as any bot. I was consistently one of the top 5 claimers in iZerg every week.

[Gredival]

Some real whiny bullshit in the dead game thread here.

[Salodin]

I don't disagree with the benefits of the system as it used to be, but we're hand waving how terrible a system it was and how boring it is content wise. How many hours did you waste literally sitting in zone doing nothing for however long that particular window was? As you concede the fight itself isnt particularly trying, it's quite literally just how little those monster designs and abilities were used in game that leads 50%+ of the community having trouble with those fights for no reason other than unfamiliarity.

They could design better systems to keep the hardcore players willing to lose .3 gpa over a game entertained, without locking the gear in content that is literally just afk-ing in a zone until your bot does <call>, or your ls leader <call>s after his bot does it for him. That's the critique of Kings.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Gredival]

we're hand waving how terrible a system it was and how boring it is content wise. How many hours did you waste literally sitting in zone doing nothing for however long that particular window was? As you concede the fight itself isnt particularly trying, it's quite literally just how little those monster designs and abilities were used in game that leads 50%+ of the community having trouble with those fights for no reason other than unfamiliarity.

And you're hand-waving the fact that ALL content and EVERY fight in XI was boring. The entire game was a cycle of understanding followed by brain-dead repetition ad nauseum.

Doing your 30th AR run in Salvage was not any more engaging or entertaining of content than your 60th Dynamis-Jeuno.

The only time there were true stakes in XI was competing for World Spawns. The quest for Linkshell Hegemony was the only thing in the game that wasn't pure tedious repetition.

AV and PW are the ONLY possible exceptions to this, but guess what, we never figured out the patterns before SE yanked them away because of casual pearl-clutching over BtL's 18hr attempt

They could design better systems to keep the hardcore players willing to lose .3 gpa over a game entertained, without locking the gear in content that is literally just afk-ing in a zone until your bot does <call>, or your ls leader <call>s after his bot does it for him. That's the critique of Kings.

I have no problem with a no-windows 21hr style camps like Shikigami.

I have no problem with alternate HNM spawn conditions like Sandworm and Ixion.

What matter is server-limited world spawns with zero-competition for those spawns. That is what was unique to Kings and what made them the best system.

[Salodin]

Disagree man. Running other type of events was infinitely more engaging than the majority of king camping. Even repeating the same event is fundamentally different than afking in aery waiting for the call if you're smart, or spamming tab if you're dumb.

I wont go into what it should or shouldn't be, just because they dont have the opportunity to change it at this point. They needed a way to create rare gear obtained from a rare and difficult fight, and kings was a solution, but it was far far farrr from perfect. It solved one problem in the most mundane way and let people deal with its cons by either quite literally wasting their time or using cheats. And again, that is the critique of kings, not that the content itself is difficult or challenging. It's the most base of content, whose difficulty in surpassing the artificial wall called "claiming" is the only measure by which people can separate each other. That's shit content in a game that for the most part people look back fondly on the content.

There is no glory is calling yourself one of the best HNM campers in the games history if all that really means is your bot was better or you hit tab at the most amazing time. Idk man, maybe your slightly better ring slot makes you think that content was worth the effort and drama, but im here to tell ya 90% of the population doesnt care and would rather have better side grades or ever so slight upgrades with a new event like nyzul or assault. This game had a million and one different systems in place, Kings was not the be all end all.

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[Gredival]

Disagree man. Running other type of events was infinitely more engaging than the majority of king camping. Even repeating the same event is fundamentally different than afking in aery

I don't know what to tell you if you're going to say doing fucking Dynamis was more engaging than the chance to watch TV or anything else for 27 minutes between windows (and again, I would be fine with alternate style pops without time sinks into the 3hr windows). I would much rather do nothing than have to do Dynamis.

It's the most base of content, whose difficulty in surpassing the artificial wall called "claiming" is the only measure by which people can separate each other. That's shit content in a game that for the most part people look back fondly on the content.

And my argument is that this was the only part of the game that wasn't tedious repetition. Content novelty ALWAYS wears off by the 3rd successful clear.

waiting for the call if you're smart, or spamming tab if you're dumb.

There is no glory is calling yourself one of the best HNM campers in the games history if all that really means is your bot was better or you hit tab at the most amazing time.

Any shell that wasn't completely botting should be clearing Darters. Valley of Sorrows was more debateable.

And no camping isn't a show of skill. Mashing enter with Provoke selected on the JA menu obviously isn't a skill test. It's a sacrifice/dedication test.

Idk man, maybe your slightly better ring slot makes you think that content was worth the effort and drama,

My Hecatomb Subligar represents a lot more blood, sweat, and tears than my Mandau. I devoted myself completely to getting those pants for three years (a large portion of which way trying, and failing, to make a Sky shell into an HNMLS). Every camp, every night waking up for windows, every night spent in rather than going out, was progress towards that goal. Comparatively my Mandau was just a bunch of tedious Dynamis runs and shouting for currency.

The D. Ring was dumb luck. Lots of King gear I got just fell into my lap because I was out there camping every single HNM, every single window, well past when I accomplished my goals. So when I could get a D. Ring and an Adaberk without even setting out to get them, I don't believe anyone telling me it was too hard for them to camp.

but im here to tell ya 90% of the population doesnt care

And that's fine. They can live with sub-optimal gear. Not everyone can, or wants to, stand at the top.

This game had a million and one different systems in place, Kings was not the be all end all.

That's sort of my point. People were so angry about King gear being locked behind camping, even after ToAU meant that D. Ring was the only unique piece (with Ares being about 90% as good as Adaberk and Ridill having been devalued by the 2H patch).

They couldn't live with being excluded from gear they weren't willing to put in the work for. I have nothing but scorn for that.

[mallister]

the bots we were using were networked and got around that claim delay pretty well. I think that was more of an annoyance when I wasnt running a bot than any sort of inconvenience when I was. I had to look up when that even happened.

I can guarantee those shells mentioned in kanican's LJ were all botting. That's not a difficult conclusion to come to.

Gred, I can get behind your point of not wanting to waste valuable time with scrubs doing scrub shit. I get it, I do. Play time is valuable.

But the rest of this, you're kidding yourself with. And as much as you can text bomb with the best of them, it's very shrill and revisionist.

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong here and your HNMLS was a utopia of a meritocracy where truly the most deserving got what they deserved and all that bullshit, or whatever.

But really what it sounds like was pretty much every other shell out there that did kings during that time period and you're on a very nice, high horse here boss.

[Mrbeansman]

I don't know what standards were like in the mid 2000s but I know quite a few people who were quite well geared that still got denied applications to shells. I had bard but my monk spent 6 months without a haidate not because I didn't have the points but because the pants never dropped in that time period to the point I ended up having to buy pops and make groups for them. I'm willing to bet there were quite a lot of people willing to put in the work that never got the chance not because they didn't have the will but because the rng was denying the mandatory pieces for certain jobs.

[Gredival]

the bots we were using were networked and got around that claim delay pretty well. I think that was more of an annoyance when I wasnt running a bot than any sort of inconvenience when I was. I had to look up when that even happened.

You can't get around claim delay using bots, whether it was automatic link camping (NASA) or manually linked (Wizbot)

What you could do was "optimize" your linkshell's claim spread. For instance, since lockout was rarely longer than two seconds with seven people you could stagger your claims at 0s, .25s, .5s, .75s, 1s, 1.25s, 1.5s, 1.75s, 2s, and 2.25s. With more people you can reduce the time between each attempt to claim to minimize the chance that claimers were locked out.

However lockout is random. It doesn't matter if you have an optimized spread with enough people for your windows to be .1 seconds. If the lockout is set to 2.3 seconds and some rando has the sprite load with just the right time for their provoke to land at 2.3 seconds, you're out of luck.

That's why I'd always take more raw claimers over fewer botters. The benefits of link camping are only fully realized with huge shells (which is why NASA shells with around two alliances of scrubs could use it to its full potential).

But the rest of this, you're kidding yourself with. And as much as you can text bomb with the best of them, it's very shrill and revisionist.

Then actually debate me. You gave your first actual argument about botting bypassing lockout, which you're wrong about, but it at least is a challenge to my argument not just you spewing shit out the wrong end.

But really what it sounds like was pretty much every other shell out there that did kings during that time period and you're on a very nice, high horse here boss.

Kings are like the SAT. It doesn't truly establish the best students, but it gets very close. Close enough that within the framework of the education system, it's accurate enough for me to be able to tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the incoming freshman class at Harvard blows the incoming freshman class of Mississippi State out of the fucking water.

In the end, even the worst HNMLS players I dealt with were actually within the top 15% of the playerbase.