FFXI Nostalgia/Why did I ever stop playing!?/Let's all go back to 2009/Never forget Kujata Thread

[Gredival]

I don't know what standards were like in the mid 2000s but I know quite a few people who were quite well geared that still got denied applications to shells. I had bard but my monk spent 6 months without a haidate not because I didn't have the points but because the pants never dropped in that time period to the point I ended up having to buy pops and make groups for them. I'm willing to bet there were quite a lot of people willing to put in the work that never got the chance not because they didn't have the will but because the rng was denying the mandatory pieces for certain jobs

If you were applying as a meele, even being fully geared minus King (full Sky/Sea/Limbus/Dynamis) probably was insufficient to be accepted to an HNMLS.

You could easily get in as a Bard, White Mage, or Black Mage with just AH gear. A Paladin could get in with just Limbus gear (Homam) and a Ninja could maybe get in with just AH gear. That does mean expensive AH gear though -- HQ staves for BLM, HQ Dusk for NIN, etc.

If you're going to take someone else in the shell as possible lot competition, they need to add value. There is literally no value added by accepting a DD only player to be competition to lot Ridill and Adaberk when senior members of a shell all have DD jobs and are known quantities in ability.

[mallister]

I dont remember the bot's name, sorry. It's been a few years now. It worked fine though. I'm pretty sure I didnt get involved in botting until after that patch went through. Damn thing did all kinds of stuff though. I loved it.

What am I debating about? I'm glad you made some friends in your HNMLS. They were still cheating over the vast majority of the life of the content, if not all of it. This does not make you somehow special, or your friends special. It makes you ruthless, which I could applaud if not for the rest.

The only spewing going on here is about about how awesome you were for being in an HNMLS. That's...it. that's the sum of your argument.

There's nothing to debate except to point out you're full of shit.

[Gadritan]

Look. I had an absurd number of king kills. Enough Ridills drop that we'd laugh and be like "soooooooo your war is lv7? All yours." 2 man triple boxed Khim. yada yada etc.

We had phenomenal players. Hell, the last HNMLS I was in we had players from some of the top LS across servers merge so we could dominate the server with about 20 ppl and we did.

What we all had in common was stories about our first kings and how we wiped and did all kinds of stupid shit. If you rarely claim, you don't get to practice, plus there's tons of pressure which causes even more mistakes.

Gred acts like HNMLS just strolled up and waxed kings like it wasn't shit. Now if you joined a HNMLS that was established and had seasoned veterans, ya, you may have been a noob but they cake walked you through that shit. I was with a couple of LS and also founded a couple full of people that were stellar players but never touched a king. Even knowing the mechanics and having every role covered thoroughly it was damn near almost a disaster the first few times.

So get the fuck off your high horse. You either came in late and got carried through, or you're full of shit.

That, or I missed too much scrolling the pages of posts here and I'm way off. But that seems to be the gist.

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[Gredival]

I dont remember the bot's name, sorry. It's been a few years now. It worked fine though. I'm pretty sure I didnt get involved in botting until after that patch went through. Damn thing did all kinds of stuff though. I loved it.

I'm sure it worked fine for automating your claim.

I'm equally sure it did not work fine for bypassing lockout. If it could bypass lockout, the era of HNMs spawning claimed would have never ended.

After the lockout patch you could pages of people starting to cast Flash/Dia/Stun but not completing. Why? Because by the time their casts would have finish, the mob was still invulnerable, so their cast would end without a claim and their characters would be locked out from re-attempts for 3 seconds.

I'm glad you made some friends in your HNMLS.

No I just found people where my time and effort wasn't a waste. "Friends" would do shit like AFK or craft during windows. HNMLS players would try claim

They were still cheating over the vast majority of the life of the content, if not all of it.

And again, you're flat out wrong about botting being essential to claims. Maybe it just never mattered to you because you could just set your bot and that was all that mattered to you since you didn't have to press buttons or clear Darters.

The only spewing going on here is about about how awesome you were for being in an HNMLS. That's...it. that's the sum of your argument.

No that mischaracterization would be the sum of your argument.

There's nothing to debate except to point out you're full of shit.

So I'll take that as a concession that skinner box optimization is how we should evaluate the game and under that framework world spawns were the best because 1) competition was psychologically rewarding, 2) horizontal progress was the best type of skinner box, 3) server limited gear rarity was good, and 4) it was the best system given the slow rate of content production by SE.

[Gredival]

That, or I missed too much scrolling the pages of posts here and I'm way off. But that seems to be the gist.

Actually my counter-point to everyone saying "Kings were ez, nothing to be proud of" was to equate Kings with every other form of content. I noted that most players who never did Kings would wipe to them *if they were in an Alliance of similarly skilled players.* I have explicitly said a few times that ALL CONTENT is a learning process, then it becomes a grind. Which means that all content inevitably drives towards tedium. No fight remains exciting past your 3rd or so clear.

What is unique about World Spawns, and only World Spawns, is that it was a direct struggle for Linkshell hegemony.

What distinguishes HNMLS players was the fact they were willing to go out and do what it took to get whatever gear they wanted. The mere fact that claims were competitive, zero sum, etc. scared off most non-HNMLS players. Or they would try it a few times and give up because they didn't claim or they wiped.

That means they were not worthy.

** Also laziness and badness are correlated. The players who were not, and would never be, good enough for an HNMLS were probably the players who would never get accepted in the first place due to their gear -- people who would TP in Sun Rings and such.

[Gadritan]

No. Like. Holy shit no.

It means that they had time to sink into it. That's it man. If I wasn't working from home doing fuck all I sure as hell wouldn't have wasted 4hrs hoping to claim something then hoping good shit dropped then hoping I won the lot. I'd go do something productive and tangible.

We just had no lives brah. I have no problems admitting that. I spent 18hrs a day on that shit. Wtf would I not camp? If it was now, no way I'd be caught with my thumb up my ass for 10 of the 12hrs I get to play a week.

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[arus2001]

There's also literal latency at play, too. Being on the eastern half of the US, even with claim delay in place, I'd be seeing whatever spawn a good second or more after those on the west coast. JPs had the obvious advantage over even those people. Pairing that against manual reaction times and zone lag when you had 100+ clumped together, you're still going to have people innately disadvantaged for reasons outside their control. No shit, having more people to claim helps the odds in claiming regardless of how they do it. It's still hardly a reasonable arbiter of access.

Otherwise, shells only wanting already geared people is pretty much the definition of the rich getting richer at play. In the occasional event a shell on a server did implode, it wasn't uncommon to see the better geared players poached even if they weren't guaranteed to be more skilled than lesser geared members or applicants. But this isn't really a problem exclusive to XI, either, as you'll see it in other games where PUG shouts want people well above a certain content's gear level and/or be able to link completion achievements. For the lesser players who still need both gear and experience, it's a needlessly uphill battle, and even if all the gimps band together and get that blue moon claim and take it to rage timer, one person getting a drop every few months isn't going to monumentally improve their efficacy and far more likely destroy their morale as time goes on. Many "midcore" shells weren't that way because they wanted to be. They wound up that way simply because there wasn't enough to feed mouths of all involved on a given server. That's when the one guy who maybe has scored a few things migrates to the rivals because the rate at which he'd see improvement where he was at just wasn't worth the wait, nor guaranteed. Countless shells likely died to things like this alone, where all that "blood, sweat, and tears" they put in meant shit elsewhere because lolDKP or similar player arbitrated system.

The last is among one of those reasons why I say XI was slow to get with the times. Other games adopting token systems helped mitigate RNG while guaranteeing reward after a certain point. SE finally dabbled in it with Assault, but because of the vaunted horizontal progression some chucklefucks glamorize, the vast majority of that gear was either DOA or very situational (Like Askar body for SAMs). The Assault tag system had its own issues, generally pushing people into statics or discouraging randomly helping others. Basically, a time gate of a different color. If you want to say Assault wasn't "as hard" as Kings, then that's fair, but even when Einherjar finally rolled around, most of that gear was still garbage and Odin even had to wind up taking Abjurations from the King pool to likely encourage people to participate because we dare not think to offend people who think they're "done" with a build in a perpetually evolving medium like MMOs.

In the end, too much of XI progress was luck-based. Hope you get claim. Hope you make the right friends. Hope you're the right job(s). Hope that group stays together. Hope the mob doesn't keep picking all its assfuck TP moves. Hope whatever drops. Hope you're not being rolled against. Perhaps aside from leveling jobs (and hopefully enjoying playing them), I don't see much of that reflecting personal merit or worth, which is why I'll continue to scoff at the old ways or that they need to be revived.

[mallister]

what distinguished HNMLS was that they were willing to cheat over the vast majority of the life of the content. i dunno why you can't just come out and say it. you are utterly full of shit.

edit: and what gadritan said. had time to waste. i was in afghanistan and had 3 years to kill, and had no life for the two years prior to that.

[Gredival]

It means that they had time to sink into it. That's it man. If I wasn't working from home doing fuck all I sure as hell wouldn't have wasted 4hrs hoping to claim something then hoping good shit dropped then hoping I won the lot. I'd go do something productive and tangible.

We just had no lives brah. I have no problems admitting that. I spent 18hrs a day on that shit. Wtf would I not camp? If it was now, no way I'd be caught with my thumb up my ass for 10 of the 12hrs I get to play a week.

You don't jump through the hoops, you don't deserve the gear. It's very simple. I'm not saying people HAVE to jump through the hoop. I'm just saying IF they want the bauble, then they jump. If the bauble isn't worth it, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to camp.

Instead though what we got were people complaining about being excluded because they didn't camp. Because they thought they were entitled to the gear as long as they had a reason for not camping.

[mallister]

lol, ok boss.

[Salodin]

The fucking irony of dropping .3 in GPA to "stand on top", but cant understand why the content was ass even if it was solving a real game systems problem.

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[Rhyis.]

There should be a rule in this thread that you can't type more paragraphs than years you spent playing the game.

[Gadritan]

I get what you're saying. It's just a poopy argument. The system sucked. Add ridill to an intense progression quest to get a pop item that still has a 5% drop rate from faf and everyone wins. Casual players get way fewer chances at it, but they still get chances. Hardcore players get way more chances thanks to their time sink. Everyone still puts in effort but doesn't get fucked by bots or being out numbered or mpk'd or the fact they can't be on from 1am-5am or any of the other 802 things that can go wrong.

It's not a difficult concept. The only people who enjoyed the open world claiming system were those that dominated it. We got rich off that shit. So ya, of course WE liked it. But God damn what a turdburger of a system for everyone else.

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[Gadritan]

I don't get it man. I was literally the definition of elitist asshole in that game and even back then I knew it was a completely broken system.

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[Rhyis.]

I don't get it man. I was literally the definition of elitist asshole in that game and even back then I knew it was a completely broken system.

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me2

[Gadritan]

There should be a rule in this thread that you can't type more paragraphs than years you spent playing the game.

Years in playtime or years total? Either way that opens the floodgate for me.

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[Gredival]

There's also literal latency at play, too. Being on the eastern half of the US, even with claim delay in place, I'd be seeing whatever spawn a good second or more after those on the west coast. JPs had the obvious advantage over even those people. Pairing that against manual reaction times and zone lag when you had 100+ clumped together, you're still going to have people innately disadvantaged for reasons outside their control.

Worse ping and latency made you slower, but this is not CS:GO where fast is always an advantage. Without lockout, yes you're absolutely right. That's a big factor in JP button. But seeing the mob spawn earlier isn't an advantage when trying to attempt to claim early just gets you locked out. I played on both coasts in my time and I did not have a noticeable advantage when I was in California vs. in Massachusetts.

No shit, having more people to claim helps the odds in claiming regardless of how they do it. It's still hardly a reasonable arbiter of access.

No where have I defended that camping was a perfect embodiment of fairness with an exact dedication to reward ratio. Nothing short of SE individually measuring every player's effort, skill, etc. to individually create claims and loot pools could meet that standard.

But on the whole, Kings rewarded the people who camped more. They claimed more, had more chances at the loot, etc.

Otherwise, shells only wanting already geared people is pretty much the definition of the rich getting richer at play.

No, it's an example of requiring people to pull their weight. Mpst shells will not recruit a WAR only, especially one who isn't even geared to the teeth, because they don't need extra DD bodies. Most shells would recruit WHMs, RDMs, or BRDs because shells could always use supports if for no other reason than it lets more senior members take out those DDs they are gearing but never get to play.

For the lesser players who still need both gear and experience, it's a needlessly uphill battle, and even if all the gimps band together and get that blue moon claim and take it to rage timer, one person getting a drop every few months isn't going to monumentally improve their efficacy and far more likely destroy their morale as time goes on. Many "midcore" shells weren't that way because they wanted to be. They wound up that way simply because there wasn't enough to feed mouths of all involved on a given server. That's when the one guy who maybe has scored a few things migrates to the rivals because the rate at which he'd see improvement where he was at just wasn't worth the wait, nor guaranteed. Countless shells likely died to things like this alone, where all that "blood, sweat, and tears" they put in meant shit elsewhere because lolDKP or similar player arbitrated system.

My personal history has addressed this. I lived it. I got scrubs and friends from no Sky access through struggling with lolGenbu to clearing JoL. Then they go into the pit and sing on the tail and lose us claims. Or they are crafting in the middle of a spawn.

You're telling me they are putting in work? That they deserved Adaberks? Especially the ones that would go on to level shit like WAR and MNK after their DRK main and never level something that could improve LS flexibility?

Thus why I said already that HNMLSs were not a chance occurrence propped up only by inertia. They were the natural result of the best players self-segregating. And whether you were late to the party or were in an HNM in 04/05, that was always the inevitable choice you had to make as a player. Why do you play and who do you need to play with to do so?

If you want to say Assault wasn't "as hard" as Kings, then that's fair, but even when Einherjar finally rolled around, most of that gear was still garbage and Odin even had to wind up taking Abjurations from the King pool to likely encourage people to participate because we dare not think to offend people who think they're "done" with a build in a perpetually evolving medium like MMOs.

I mean the Odin pool was Valhalla, two new Abj. sets (which like most Abj. sets only had a few good pieces -- except Heca which was all good but only because every piece was a WS only item), and Adaberk plus Dalmatica. Even without Adaberk and Dramatica, that pool was worth the minimal time and effort for a twice weekly Einherjar run.

In the end, too much of XI progress was luck-based. Hope you get claim. Hope you make the right friends. Hope you're the right job(s). Hope that group stays together. Hope the mob doesn't keep picking all its assfuck TP moves. Hope whatever drops. Hope you're not being rolled against. Perhaps aside from leveling jobs (and hopefully enjoying playing them), I don't see much of that reflecting personal merit or worth, which is why I'll continue to scoff at the old ways or that they need to be revived.

Camp more. Make yourself useful. Level a support. Don't join a trash shell. Be good enough to deal with the mob even on a bad day. Camp more to claim more. Camp more to have the highest DKP.

It wasn't perfect, but at the end of the day if you were willing to put in the work anything you wanted in XI, including King gear, was attainable with the right choices.

Bootstrapping yourself up by leveling a support and buying HQ staves isn't the same as having to bootstrap oneself up growing up in the projects.

[Niiro]

King zones should have been PvP-enabled.

[Gredival]

what distinguished HNMLS was that they were willing to cheat over the vast majority of the life of the content. i dunno why you can't just come out and say it. you are utterly full of shit.

edit: and what gadritan said. had time to waste. i was in afghanistan and had 3 years to kill, and had no life for the two years prior to that.

Because I claimed more than several botters in my shell. They got to be lazy and sleep with their alarms. I woke up every 27 minutes.

The fucking irony of dropping .3 in GPA to "stand on top", but cant understand why the content was ass even if it was solving a real game systems problem.

I made a choice what was important to me. A choice I did not regret for one second, even when I didn't claim or get shit for being in the pit that morning, until Mizuki Ito shit all over FFXI with Abyssea.

I get what you're saying. It's just a poopy argument. The system sucked. Add ridill to an intense progression quest to get a pop item that still has a 5% drop rate from faf and everyone wins. Casual players get way fewer chances at it, but they still get chances. Hardcore players get way more chances thanks to their time sink. Everyone still puts in effort but doesn't get fucked by bots or being out numbered or mpk'd or the fact they can't be on from 1am-5am or any of the other 802 things that can go wrong.

20x more D. Rings dropped in the 8 years since May 2010 (Visions of Abyssea) than the eight years that proceeded it.

No rarity filter will ever match server side limitations.

And camping makes the time sinks relative.

It's not a difficult concept. The only people who enjoyed the open world claiming system were those that dominated it. We got rich off that shit. So ya, of course WE liked it. But God damn what a turdburger of a system for everyone else.

I don't get it man. I was literally the definition of elitist asshole in that game and even back then I knew it was a completely broken system.

I was kicked in the face repeatedly trying to climb the ladder (CRTL+F any of my posts where I mentioned Maverick). I was in the midcore shell trying to become an HNMLS but faltering under the weight of our anchors.

Again, the basic question players must confront is: Why do you play and who do you need to play with to do so? If you want the shiniest, rarest gear, then you go join an HNMLS. Once you commit to that decision, it's easy.

People who rail against the system made a choice. They don't get to whine about the consequences.

King zones should have been PvP-enabled.

I actually would have been fine with this if there were refinements to PvP. It probably stabilizes the HNM scene to two LS/alliances per server.

[Gadritan]

Wtf best players self-segregating. Dude, it was no lifers. There were always HNMLS that got a decent amount of claims, had geared out players, but they were fucking garbage ass players. Even in great LS you'd sometimes have those 2-3 ppl that sucked ass but they had 24/7 playtime and were friends with someone in the shell. Again, HNMLS didn't mean fuck all when it came to skill.

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