FFXI Nostalgia/Why did I ever stop playing!?/Let's all go back to 2009/Never forget Kujata Thread

[Corrderio]

That's why you always remember Signet, folks.

But signet could replace legit drops with crystals! That's why you don't use it and need to use Tachi:Koki to guarantee the best drops.

[Mrbeansman]

Crystal didnt drop in sea cause it wasn't a signet area,

[Insanecyclone]

signet brb

[Niiro]

signet brb

[dies on the way back to camp]

[FallingHigher]

Wasn’t there some trick with getting it caught on a wall? I know one hnmls on my server tried to do it but I can’t remember how it ended

[Gredival]

Wasn’t there some trick with getting it caught on a wall? I know one hnmls on my server tried to do it but I can’t remember how it ended

Yeah. After that there was a shit fest because SE told GMs we can't use terrain against mobs instead of telling them we can't glitch mobs, which meant that people were getting GMs called on them for kiting King V.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[arus2001]

There's no misinterpretation necessary to see that post-Heroes decline was accelerated.

And you have zero substantial proof that Abyssea was that cause. Meanwhile, you have myself and others citing VW as an attempt to "return" to the old ways and people having none of it, regardless of feelings on the proc system. You had WotG bleeding people prior, with Abyssea a temporary resurgence because, shock of shocks, they didn't have people like you playing gatekeeper and there were things to beyond fucking with SW/Ix. You had the hurricane cutting off addicts cold turkey for a couple weeks. You had the game simply being old by default, with the temptation of some other shiny luring people away. You had people who aged out of high time commitment play with work/family/etc.. There wasn't any real knowledge that SE intended to do more with XI, with all hands on deck to save XIV. We had interviews floating around that it was meant to be the swan song, because deep down, we all know SE wanted us to migrate to their new baby. But that's still not the same as killing it, either.

If your argument is that no gatekeeping is good as a principle, then it really should be fine to have 100% full drop personal pools. If the argument is that you deserve an item as long as you can clear content, then RNG, people in your group, and people out of your group are all functionally barriers on item acquisition. This is the very principle behind people thinking they were entitled to dupe Salvage drops. Doesn't matter if the barrier was a world spawn or just shitty RNG, it shouldn't exist.

Again, this is you going full retard because you arbitrarily believe that people shouldn't have things because someone, or group of someones, needs to sit atop the mountain.

I'll just more broadly state that I believe no individual item should take more than 10 hours of actual in-game effort to acquire. Factoring XI's 16 slots, that would mean 160 hours for a single set, with more like 320 for your average TP/WS sets for a melee. For the people who play 10-15 hours a week, that's still a fair chunk of the year. For those that grind as close to 24/7 as they can, then of course they'll be done in a few weeks, themselves, then bitching about having nothing to do because they're absent of self-control or empathy for all the people they're willing to walk over that funded the very content you/they just got, anyway. Things like items that upgrade/evolve should otherwise adhere to that same 10 hour rule within their subsequent stages, and ideally for not just a +1 to a single stat. Later on down the road, if there's, say, a +3 version of something, an unupgradable +2 alternative can be released for those players who can't reliably put 40 hours into a single item but still want to be useful to their peers if they happened to come to the game late, switched mains, or whatever kept them from being current with the content cycle.

I simply can not and will not value rarity for prestige's sake. That's not how you balance, either. I wouldn't give a shit if everyone had a Ridill. I wouldn't feel less special. Something like SE shifting the pop item to KS99, then leaving the fight to the player/group's discretion was fair. No one had a bottleneck on seals, with their drops even having a hard 5m limit per party per drop. Of course, you still weren't guaranteed a pop or a drop, but it was still better than rarely, if ever, getting claim or having to sacrifice sleep or whatever just to try. Shells could go on to plan around it, no point systems needed when you could go your pop/drop and defer any unwanted things. And there lies the rub, really. You're trying to justify your sacrifice, not just to us, but to yourself. The moment you realize it was stupid, wasted time, and all that, is the moment all this pomposity comes crashing down and you're that much more the fool. And sure, you can snub popularity, but the fatal flaw in assuming all people on a more casual schedule are inept wannabes is that they're not. Others may need a guiding hand or two, and there's nothing wrong with that, and I'd further posit devs need to do a better job teaching their players about things than forcing them to community guides/videos. But that's another subject. Each game tends to introduce their own unique hurdles, anyway, where something like telling lowbies to level a support job simply can't apply in a game where you're locked to one class per character.

[Gredival]

Man, why's it so hard to concede you benefited from botters and that community,

Because I'm giving a literal reasons why botting was insignificant and proof that I claimed just as much as anybody else in my shell

including learning the strat to fight a mob they only ever claimed pre-Kings update

Because I fought all three Kings with shells that didn't bot -- my own shell -- as well as most content in the game up to ToAU. I cleared Ixion and Sandworm with on Quetz in a shell that had no botters.

Because there were other ways to learn the King fights (KS99, Nyzul Isle).

It's fundamentally why Kings was not good content -- just hang out in zone 24/7 with your bot friends and claim 20%+ of the spawns a year.

And I am arguing that Kings were fundamentally the best content for being the only content that was server side limited.

Especially in the light of the pace XI's content updates, making the best gear so rare, locking it behind competition, and creating a horizontal progression structure was good.

These are reasons, points, and warrants for my argument you actually have to contest. You can't just lazily skim the post and give a shitty take, then conclude you're "fundamentally" right.

Can I recommend the Nasomi server here for those of you who miss Kings of olde?

I actually have been contacted by people who used to be in the shell I led. I don't want to join a server that could get shut down at any time.

Also the drop rates are higher.

I'd join a legacy sever in an instant.

And you have zero substantial proof that Abyssea was that cause. Meanwhile, you have myself and others citing VW as an attempt to "return" to the old ways and people having none of it, regardless of feelings on the proc system.

Except Voidwatch was NOT as return to the old ways.

Voidwatch was designed to function in the post-HNMLS era. Yes it was alliance content and a return being complete piece drops instead of farming multiple fragments.

But the fact that it was personal loot pools meant that there was no incentive to do the content with a regular group of people. Even if you were still in a large end game shell, you would STILL shout and fill all 18 slots. That is NOT the same as being equivalent to 75 cap content.

You had WotG bleeding people prior, with Abyssea a temporary resurgence because, shock of shocks, they didn't have people like you playing gatekeeper and there were things to beyond fucking with SW/Ix.

First, WotG having a fundamental lack of content is not proof world spawns are bad.

Zilart AND CoP AND ToAU had World Spawns and the subscription base was just fine because all those expansions offered other content that gave top shelf gear. I literally posted a list, but here it is again.

Zilart: Kings, Sky, Dynamis, KS99
CoP: Wyrms, Sea/AV, Limbus, Bahamut encounters
ToAU: Beastmen Kings, ZNM/PW, Assault/Salvage/Nyzul, Einherjar
WotG: Ixion and Sandworm, ANNM

I never once said that CoP and ToAU had too much non-King content. I never once argued that all gear should be gate kept. Only the top gear. The fact that every expansion locked just a few pieces behind World Spawns and had other content is part of the functioning system that I defend.

Second, my point is that the spike starting with Visions of Abyssea and the decline after Heroes of Abyssea were abnormally large for expansions PRECISELY because Abyssea deviated from the base difficulty it took to attain top gear and because of the vertical progression. The game ALWAYS bled people that reached their progression cap. Some people's progression cap didn't include the world spawns.

However with Abyssea, EVERYONE reached the progression cap because it was so easy to farm everything and because vertical progression meant there was no need to go back and do previous content.

So the post Abyssea decline was abnormally steep. And the brief resurgence, and continued plunge, was because Voidwatch was a failure. And as explained above, that has more to do with Voidwatch's similarity to Abyssea than it's similarity to 75 cap content.

Third, the problem FFXI faced going into WotG is that salvage bans decked a lot of people above the 50% median which meant that it was imperative for WotG to at least deliver a variety of content. But it didn't. The problem wasn't Ixion and Sandworm -- it was the lack of anything else. It was a bare bones expansion that was basically on the level of the base game with Ixion and SW being the equivalent of Serket, Athro, Simurgh, and Roc

Again, this is you going full retard because you arbitrarily believe that people shouldn't have things because someone, or group of someones, needs to sit atop the mountain.

No this is you saying that gear should be accessible and not gate-kept but refusing to defend what that world actually looks like.

I say the system is good. You say it's bad. Even if we disagree, you alternative to the system still matters.

I'll just more broadly state that I believe no individual item should take more than 10 hours of actual in-game effort to acquire. Factoring XI's 16 slots, that would mean 160 hours for a single set, with more like 320 for your average TP/WS sets for a melee. For the people who play 10-15 hours a week, that's still a fair chunk of the year. For those that grind as close to 24/7 as they can, then of course they'll be done in a few weeks, themselves, then bitching about having nothing to do because they're absent of self-control or empathy for all the people they're willing to walk over that funded the very content you/they just got, anyway.

Great so we're going to be in the situation where subs teeter-totter every content release because top people will reach the progression cap within a month or two of every update and the worst players still manage to crawl over the line after four?

You know, like the exact thing I criticized Abyssea for and what happened after Heroes of Abyssea?

I simply can not and will not value rarity for prestige's sake.

So everyone in the game should arrive at the exact same end point. No one should ever be limited out by their total time dedication or skill ceiling.

I disagree but this at least needs to be a principle you will defend.

That's not how you balance, either. I wouldn't give a shit if everyone had a Ridill. I wouldn't feel less special. Something like SE shifting the pop item to KS99, then leaving the fight to the player/group's discretion was fair. No one had a bottleneck on seals, with their drops even having a hard 5m limit per party per drop. Of course, you still weren't guaranteed a pop or a drop, but it was still better than rarely, if ever, getting claim or having to sacrifice sleep or whatever just to try. Shells could go on to plan around it, no point systems needed when you could go your pop/drop and defer any unwanted things. And there lies the rub, really.

What is wrong with a handful of drops being super exclusive?

We're talking about five items locked behind Kings: Adaberk, Ridill, D. Ring, N. Legs, Dalmatica.

And by ToAU there were very close alternates to Adaberk, Ridill had been devalued, and several alternate Refresh bodies for everyone but RDM. Gaiters and Shai'ir Manteel were both AH able if you didn't want to camp Wyrms.

Why is it more important that no one feels left out not being able to get five prestige items vs. letting them exist as the brass ring for the most driven of players actually willing to sacrifice do so?

You're trying to justify your sacrifice, not just to us, but to yourself. The moment you realize it was stupid, wasted time, and all that, is the moment all this pomposity comes crashing down and you're that much more the fool.

No realization materially affects how hard Mizuki Ito fucked me up the ass. I've already said I have no regrets for what I did, only bitterness about what other people did when they could not do the same.

You want this shiny bauble and can't play without it? Then go out and get it.

And sure, you can snub popularity, but the fatal flaw in assuming all people on a more casual schedule are inept wannabes is that they're not. Others may need a guiding hand or two, and there's nothing wrong with that

And what about players that fundamentally just don't care enough or will never be good enough?

See you're assuming my stance with these people is that they should be crushed underfoot and driven out. All I think is that players should get gear relative to their ability.

Even in dystopias the elites don't ever just flat out get rid of the masses. However repressed they are, the masses are there because you cannot construct a society with just the 1%. Especially in a video game that has to reach some standard of economic return.

Each game tends to introduce their own unique hurdles, anyway, where something like telling lowbies to level a support job simply can't apply in a game where you're locked to one class per character.

I mean, do you not think that people in WoW who played DPS had more problem finding End Game raid guilds compared to healers? The law of large numbers helps somewhat, but the basic problem in every game is that the amount of people who like to stab is disproportionate to the amount of stabbing slots open.

XI offered a way for people to get gear for any job they wanted, they just had to realize that meant you may never do the content on the job you want. But it was probably better than being locked out fundamentally. And making people level support jobs usually made them better players. Because nothing makes you understand what you were asking of the backline better than playing the backline.

Like this was the exact problem Creamsoda had in Zerg because his ass was always /WAR or /SAM and blaming the healers for not keeping him up because he refused to use Seigan and Third Eye because "it ruins the parse."

[Xno Kappa]

The problem with the King world spawn system is that it disproportionately benefited a niche sect of players. Whether it be botters outclaiming others because their bot program was shinier than the next, or the JP who had a literal latency advantage. It shunned content from the casual player and those born and raised. On the playground is where I spent most of my days. Chillin' out, maxin', relaxin all cool, and all shootin' some B-ball outside of the school. When a couple of guys who were up to no good. Started makin' trouble in my neighborhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel Air." I whistled for a cab, and when it came near, the license plate said "fresh" and it had dice in the mirror. If anything I could say that this cab was rare. But I thought "Nah forget it, Yo home to Bel Air." I pulled up to the house about seven or eight and I yelled to the cabby "Yo homes, smell ya later." Looked at my kingdom, I was finally there, to sit on my throne as the....

[Rhyis.]

The problem with the King world spawn system is that it disproportionately benefited a niche sect of players. Whether it be botters outclaiming others because their bot program was shinier than the next, or the JP who had a literal latency advantage. It shunned content from the casual player and those born and raised. On the playground is where I spent most of my days. Chillin' out, maxin', relaxin all cool, and all shootin' some B-ball outside of the school. When a couple of guys who were up to no good. Started makin' trouble in my neighborhood. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, and said "You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel Air." I whistled for a cab, and when it came near, the license plate said "fresh" and it had dice in the mirror. If anything I could say that this cab was rare. But I thought "Nah forget it, Yo home to Bel Air." I pulled up to the house about seven or eight and I yelled to the cabby "Yo homes, smell ya later." Looked at my kingdom, I was finally there, to sit on my throne as the....

[Rhyis.]

also why is this dude still running his mouth about shit when he was dying to genbu when the rest of us were literally soloing it

[Gredival]

also why is this dude still running his mouth about shit when he was dying to genbu when the rest of us were literally soloing it

Got Gadritan talking about how exposure and access was the difference between HNMLS players and midcores. Got Salodin saying that I only got what I did because I got carried. Got arus saying that I need to have more sympathy for the have-nots.

So I give a detailed personal history about making my own shell. How I went about getting multiple people their Sky access, their Sea access. How I went about learning to do the Sky and Sea content leading people who also had zero experience. How I was in one of those midcore shells that got pushed to the fringe by HNMLS. How I left once I realized that I could lead my team of horses to water but I was tired of having to whip them to get them to drink.

I put in my time and I carried more than my fair share to get what I wanted. Anyone else could do the same. The system worked. Sorry that I can't also meet your standard of when I should have been doing it.

[arus2001]

Your story isn't unique, though, even if your "can't beat 'em, join 'em!" for collaborating with botters is delicious icing. I've led people, too. I've seen people I worked hard grooming abandon ship to the proverbial big boys not because the horses weren't drinking once led to water, they weren't drinking fast enough. I've seen people suddenly lose interest once they got what they were after, be it as simple as a Haidate or a freakin' relic. Damn straight I'm looking at the potential satisfaction of thousands of players per server over a few dozen, because without them, you're not getting content, either. Countless midcore shells have come and gone across all worlds, primarily dissolving because needs couldn't be satisfied. Not because people didn't want to try to learn the fights and all that, but basically because the lines were too long.

If we're continuing to wax philosophy, I don't believe any mob/event should ever actually drop wearable gear. Ridill never should have actually existed as it did, as an example. You had the power of the item compared against the difficulty of its source and the inevitable result was, "Well, we have to make it stupid rare!" instead of breaking its acquisition up into a process that starts off with more or less a trinket drop and graduates into its final, powerful form through a mix of crafting and other in-game objectives of escalating, yet fair difficulty. Things like that are also a part of me striving to make the game worlds better. XI dabbled in that to some degree between things like cursed gear or Magian trials, but I say dabble because it was the weakest sauce approach to the concepts possible. Stories weren't being written around these things, building lore up and making the world more of a world. It was wholly mechanical A to B blah with the irony of XI still being the best game for telling stories in its time.

In any event, stringing players along needlessly is all well and good for the sub model and sluggish content development, but it's still not best for the players themselves. Yes, VW was a return to alliance content that people didn't really crave anymore. There was pretty much no story related to the mobs we faced, only that they're more or less interdimensional invaders. Yawn. They fed us the line that items had to be rare because of personal loot, but then they go on to prevent the sharing of certain things where you had people going 0/stupidly large number for something like a Toci's while someone who didn't even want it could go 1/1 or even get multiples in time. Herpderping that that's the way the cookie crumbles still doesn't make it a good gaming experience. And again, people really weren't sure what they should be looking forward to post-VW since Adoulin was still under wraps. This is a point of SE dropping the ball in content development here. There really wasn't anything to meaningfully employ the gains of Abyssea against, even casually with solo/low-man. So, of course people got bored. I don't blame them for that because I got bored, too. Me telling people SE can and should do better isn't some new song and dance from me, either. The problem is the addicts let them skate by. The addicts justify their missteps. XI actually had a chance to reinvent itself when it finally came to dropping consoles, but it was a squandered opportunity. Instead, we get the phantom mobile announcement, Adoulin sluggishly plodding along with Rhapsodies being the for realsies wrap up end guys, and now freakin' Dynamis 3.0 because who needs originality anymore.

[Fiye]

At least XIV gives me fucking pages when the last fight decides to drop 5 striking bodies within 7 weeks.

[Gredival]

Your story isn't unique, though,

I never said it was. It's just terminal defense to your personal criticisms.

And the fact I'm not unique only strengthens my point. If success at the HNM level was only a question of will, there is no reason why the game needed to become more accessible.

even if your "can't beat 'em, join 'em!" for collaborating with botters is delicious icing

Because I was tired of having to do shit like call roll before windows to make sure people weren't doing stupid stuff like crafting during spawn time? Or searching people to make sure they aren't taking off pearl to skip Kings? Yeah, I can live with botters who will at least camp when I know that the botting wasn't what was "excluding" midcores.

. Damn straight I'm looking at the potential satisfaction of thousands of players per server over a few dozen, because without them, you're not getting content, either.

If they couldn't live without the handful of prestige items that were locked behind world spawns, it shows that prestige items are important enough to merit their rarity.

Countless midcore shells have come and gone across all worlds, primarily dissolving because needs couldn't be satisfied. Not because people didn't want to try to learn the fights and all that, but basically because the lines were too long.

So what, is this a criticism of non-World Spawn content too? Was EVERYTHING pre-Abyssea too rare?

If we're continuing to wax philosophy, I don't believe any mob/event should ever actually drop wearable gear. Ridill never should have actually existed as it did, as an example. You had the power of the item compared against the difficulty of its source and the inevitable result was, "Well, we have to make it stupid rare!" instead of breaking its acquisition up into a process that starts off with more or less a trinket drop and graduates into its final, powerful form through a mix of crafting and other in-game objectives of escalating, yet fair difficulty.

So in addition to every player being able to do all content no matter what, gear acquisition should simply be a question of repetition. We press the level X times for the cheese, nothing more nothing less?

In any event, stringing players along needlessly is all well and good for the sub model and sluggish content development, but it's still not best for the players themselves.

That's a nebulous concept. You're taking it for granted that maximum utility is achieved by everyone being able to achieve everything without considering the possibility that stratification and challenges enrich the experience even if it means some people are excluded -- even terminally excluded.

Case in point is having scores in sports. We don't watch sports just to see feats of human athleticism. The context is always competition. You need stakes. It might be fine in little league for there to be no scores and no losers, but we reach a point where comparison and competition is vital.

Let's go back to your idea that all gear should be a gradual process. We press the level X times for the cheese, nothing more nothing less. The obvious flaw in this is that everything is pure repetition. Sort of the reason everyone hated Dynamis or grinding 1000 meaningless kills for Magian Trials.

As much as you want to talk about how my vision of XI turns it into a job, I feel like your vision is definitely one with less color. My point about World Spawns is that the competition between shells is the only thing that WASN'T repetitive tedium.

Yes, VW was a return to alliance content that people didn't really crave anymore.

It was alliance content with none of the previous framework for alliance content. Not just HNMLS, but the LS structure that was the backbone of non-HNM end game content.

They fed us the line that items had to be rare because of personal loot, but then they go on to prevent the sharing of certain things where you had people going 0/stupidly large number for something like a Toci's while someone who didn't even want it could go 1/1 or even get multiples in time. Herpderping that that's the way the cookie crumbles still doesn't make it a good gaming experience.

See above. Making loot independent was their way of disincentivizing the elitist HNMLS exclusivity you decry. Without a communal pool there's no need to be beholden to an cliquish HNMLS that refuse undergeared and poor parsing players without support jobs.

Just do everything in pick up shouts. No entry barriers.

This is a point of SE dropping the ball in content development here. There really wasn't anything to meaningfully employ the gains of Abyssea against, even casually with solo/low-man. So, of course people got bored. I don't blame them for that because I got bored, too.

You know what stops people from getting bored and capping out really fast?

Tiers of items that are progressively rare and hard to get. Maybe even with the top most of the best tier being literally a couple drops per year? Hmm.

You know what means there's always content to measure yourself against?

Horizontal gear progression that keeps old content relevant.

[Salodin]

It's not that no one cares to respond, its that no one cqares to respond when you're so clearly infatuated with server limited spawns that youd skip a college final and lose gpa over it. Everyone has gone over ad naseum why the content was shit, even if it fit a niche that all online games have to figure out and design. Kings was their attempt at that solution, and it came with many cons.

No, you dont need to spend days writing essays about what they could have done differently. You are quite literally talking past everyone responding to you because you cant concede how terribly shit content has to be to sacrifice as much real life time and money as HNMLS did simply for access to a chance at a low drop for gear as marginal as King drops, especially in a genre of games notorious for vertical upgrades. The only reason Kings was so relevant for so long was because gear swapping is a thing, and because they were afraid of making content from older expansions completely irrelevant; two things they slowly gave up on in ToAU and beyond.

Did that also contribute to a slow bleed of players? Probably, but every aging MMO has subscription problems. It isnt unique to FFXI, and FFXI is still going strong on that 1 or 2 servers worth joining.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Salodin]

If we werent complaining about Gred getting his feelings hurt because he sacrificed real world shit for access to Kings, wed be complaining that a decade after its release there is still no top tier content better than abjuration gear. The bitching that would result from that, like 4 expansions later, would be heavier than Greds tears. I have no regrets.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Anoat]

‘member when “you TP in a Denali bonnet!” was a sick burn? Those were the days.

[Dotsudoku]

No, you dont need to spend days writing essays about what they could have done differently. You are quite literally talking past everyone responding to you because you cant concede how terribly shit content has to be to...

You can call him crazy or an addict to your heart's content -he very well may be both- but this is horseshit. He's talking past no one. Every one of his positions is clearly defined and thoroughly and thoughtfully defended.

It's not for you to demand that he concede because everyone else has made their point, particularly when most everyone else's points are lazy and superficial

[Gredival]

It's not that no one cares to respond, its that no one cqares to respond when you're so clearly infatuated with server limited spawns that youd skip a college final and lose gpa over it.

So in other words people want to launch personal attacks instead of debate? Got it.

Everyone has gone over ad naseum why the content was shit, even if it fit a niche that all online games have to figure out and design. Kings was their attempt at that solution, and it came with many cons.

You are quite literally talking past everyone responding to you because you cant concede how terribly shit content has to be to sacrifice as much real life time and money as HNMLS did simply for access to a chance at a low drop for gear as marginal as King drops,

No I'm saying that Kings were a uniquely good solution overall. I'm giving actual specific reasons why it was good.

Arus at least is approaching the debate from a radically different value perspective. There's pedagogical value in examining what his idealized MMO looks like. We can actually compare how 75 cap era XI lives up to the goals I set forth vs. how his vision lives up to his goals. Or my vision for how the game could have progressed while maintaining item status vs. how it actually did.

Now if we actually ever had a discussion about which goals we SHOULD value and why instead of just tangential attempts at psychoanalyzing me and my addiction or lack of empathy and what have you, we might have a debate.

especially in a genre of games notorious for vertical upgrades. The only reason Kings was so relevant for so long was because gear swapping is a thing, and because they were afraid of making content from older expansions completely irrelevant; two things they slowly gave up on in ToAU and beyond.

You realize this is precisely what made XI different? It's the unique thing that even current players say is lost, and what legacy server proponents want, right?

If we werent complaining about Gred getting his feelings hurt because he sacrificed real world shit for access to Kings, wed be complaining that a decade after its release there is still no top tier content better than abjuration gear. The bitching that would result from that, like 4 expansions later, would be heavier than Greds tears. I have no regrets.

Lots of insignificant butthurt that people couldn't get D. Rings or Adaberk still being the best vs. catastrophic damage to the identity and integrity of the game.