Patch 2.55 Notes

[Jem]

Are you doing SCs, or not? If you are, GSD is unquestionably superior. If you're not, what is your party composition? Up until July '05, the overwhelming majority of burn parties involved RNG, which a B- wielding DRK/NIN is not taking hate from. And on the subject of B-, from April '04 to Sept. '04 (sushi release) I'm unsure how B- Axe with Rampage was better than A+ Scythe with Guillo. Wasn't accuracy the argument against Guillo?

There is a general tendency to apply latter-day mechanics backward in time. Prior to RNG nerf, no one was singing March; if they were, the RNG nerf would never have been necessary in the first place (as DW+Marches+Haste would have been competitive with RNG). It was almost always double Minuet with the occasional Madrigal. So without March(es), DW B- Axes aren't particularly impressive, especially if accuracy is a concern.

I suppose there is a window in between RNG nerf and 2h buff (during DW burn era) where DW Axe DRK with sushi and Marches would be superior to scythe/GSD, but it's tough for me to recall as I don't really remember seeing any DRKs at all during the NIN/WAR/MNK/BRD/RDM oligarchy.

The original points against Scythe were both low acc and attack and both are relevant.

Uncapped acc - Favors single hit WS'es due to the acc boost on first hit (I.e. Spinning Slash)
Low attack - Favors crit WS'es as the lower your attack, the larger relative boost a crit gives. Also favors attack boosting WS'es. (I.e. Rampage and Spinning Slash)


Rampage was just a significantly better WS than Guillotine and the difference in skill (+7-26 from Guillo to 75) didn't do enough to overturn that gap. The mechanics also favoring single handed weapons / dual wielding didn't help.

The 2 handed buff was what overhauled that gap (although not for Axe/Ridill unless you had Apoc).

[Spider-Dan]

So if you are making the argument that GSD might have beaten SCY, fine. They were similar enough in DMG/ATK/ACC that it really came down to whether Spinslash beat Guillo on your current target.

But if your accuracy was high enough to make DW B- axes worthwhile, then Guillotine was going to be godlike and you've already blown up your position. To wit, the 32 accuracy difference between SCY and Axe at 75 ([276-240] * 0.9) is a base difference of 16% hit rate, which would have matched or beaten DW2 on autoattacks and demolished DW2 on WS. And whatever resources axe DRK used to catch on up on ACC were going straight to haste/ATK/STR for SCY DRK. So I don't really see how SCY DRK lost to axe DRK.

To put this in perspective, RNG had the same axe rating as DRK (and enough accuracy bonuses to have better than A+ hitrate), access to good axes, and access to a WAY better WS than Rampage... yet there was never any point where RNG's best option was to melee with axes and spam slugs, even after RNG nerf.

[Taint]

So if you are making the argument that GSD might have beaten SCY, fine. They were similar enough in DMG/ATK/ACC that it really came down to whether Spinslash beat Guillo on your current target.

But if your accuracy was high enough to make DW B- axes worthwhile, then Guillotine was going to be godlike and you've already blown up your position. To wit, the 32 accuracy difference between SCY and Axe at 75 ([276-240] * 0.9) is a base difference of 16% hit rate, which would have matched or beaten DW2 on autoattacks and demolished DW2 on WS. And whatever resources axe DRK used to catch on up on ACC were going straight to haste/ATK/STR for SCY DRK. So I don't really see how SCY DRK lost to axe DRK.

To put this in perspective, RNG had the same axe rating as DRK (and enough accuracy bonuses to have better than A+ hitrate), access to good axes, and access to a WAY better WS than Rampage... yet there was never any point where RNG's best option was to melee with axes and spam slugs, even after RNG nerf.

That's because of the RNG nerf....it nerfed melee range TP + ranged WS spam.

Axe DRK wasn't until Sushi days and it was mainly because of dualwield and rampage being better then scythe and guillotine. You needed sushi for Scythe and for axe back then unless you had Apoc. There was no acc/att food yet. DRK was also behind WAR at that point so axe WAR > axe DRK > scythe DRK. Apoc was the exception since you had +30 acc, 10% haste (that was rare back then), self dark and a single hit WS.

[Jem]

So if you are making the argument that GSD might have beaten SCY, fine. They were similar enough in DMG/ATK/ACC that it really came down to whether Spinslash beat Guillo on your current target.

But if your accuracy was high enough to make DW B- axes worthwhile, then Guillotine was going to be godlike and you've already blown up your position. To wit, the 32 accuracy difference between SCY and Axe at 75 ([276-240] * 0.9) is a base difference of 16% hit rate, which would have matched or beaten DW2 on autoattacks and demolished DW2 on WS. And whatever resources axe DRK used to catch on up on ACC were going straight to haste/ATK/STR for SCY DRK. So I don't really see how SCY DRK lost to axe DRK.

To put this in perspective, RNG had the same axe rating as DRK (and enough accuracy bonuses to have better than A+ hitrate), access to good axes, and access to a WAY better WS than Rampage... yet there was never any point where RNG's best option was to melee with axes and spam slugs, even after RNG nerf.

During that time period you're purely talking about exp to 75 because we already established that Greatsword was the go to on endgame. And as merit points didn't exist then, there was no reason to exp at 75. And nobody was wearing haste gear either as the haste gear that existed was unrealistic to have whilst levelling

Well I guess if you want to argue technicalities there was a tiny stretch between Jul 04 and Sept 04 when merits were implemented (but not expanded) and sushi didn't exist yet.

[Sho]

Love it when FFXIV Patch chat becomes FFXI nostalgia, lol.

[Taint]

Love it when FFXIV Patch chat becomes FFXI nostalgia, lol.

Its like going to a bar and watching a basketball game, as soon as the game is over you talk about the '96 Bulls.

FFXIV has nothing left to discuss, so we are all going back to the MMO glory days and our glorified memories.

[Jem]

I almost installed that nasomi private server last night because of this chat. But the instructions weren't very clear for if you already had XI installed and I couldn't be assed tinkering around with it.

[Spider-Dan]

During that time period you're purely talking about exp to 75 because we already established that Greatsword was the go to on endgame. And as merit points didn't exist then, there was no reason to exp at 75.

Merits were introduced prior to ranged nerf (and therefore prior to widespread March) so SCY would have been relevant at 75.

And like I said, if you want to argue for GSD over SCY then I'm amenable to it (although if we're being honest, GSD vs. SCY at endgame before 2h buff is really just Light SC vs. Darkness SC because your only function at that point is as a setup man for the BLM army).

And nobody was wearing haste gear either as the haste gear that existed was unrealistic to have whilst levelling

Limbus was out for a very, very long time before 2h buff.

[Odin'sLaw]

Merits were introduced prior to ranged nerf (and therefore prior to widespread March) so SCY would have been relevant at 75.

And like I said, if you want to argue for GSD over SCY then I'm amenable to it (although if we're being honest, GSD vs. SCY at endgame before 2h buff is really just Light SC vs. Darkness SC because your only function at that point is as a setup man for the BLM army).


Limbus was out for a very, very long time before 2h buff.

if your on about leveling besides Swift belt and haste belt (that King crab dropped) was there actually any Haste gear prior to lv 71 for drk? (i think the drk jse had haste on it but wasn't that also suicide gear/possibly not even around then?)

[Sho]

Its like going to a bar and watching a basketball game, as soon as the game is over you talk about the '96 Bulls.

FFXIV has nothing left to discuss, so we are all going back to the MMO glory days and our glorified memories.

Sounds good to me. And yes, the '96 Bulls was the god damn best.



Never forget.

[Jem]

Merits were introduced prior to ranged nerf (and therefore prior to widespread March) so SCY would have been relevant at 75.

And like I said, if you want to argue for GSD over SCY then I'm amenable to it (although if we're being honest, GSD vs. SCY at endgame before 2h buff is really just Light SC vs. Darkness SC because your only function at that point is as a setup man for the BLM army).


Limbus was out for a very, very long time before 2h buff.

What relevance does March have? With or without March Axes beat Scythe prior to 2 hand buff. Your argument was that you needed Sushi for that to be viable. Merits came out Jul 04, Sushi Sept 04.

If you're arguing after sushi release then Axe DRK isn't dropping any Haste for Acc because all the Limbus haste gear had Acc on it. Limbus gear was not out prior to Sushi. And before Sushi people were not wearing Haste gear.

If you think that prior to 2 hand buff Scythe beats axes, especially when Ridill exists, then I don't know what to tell you.

if your on about leveling besides Swift belt and haste belt (that King crab dropped) was there actually any Haste gear prior to lv 71 for drk? (i think the drk jse had haste on it but wasn't that also suicide gear/possibly not even around then?)

Pre-sushi you didn't even have Swift. Patroclus Helm, Speed Belt and Dusk were the only options I think. Maybe Blitz Ring too but nobody used them until like late ToAU.

[Lucavi]

Its like going to a bar and watching a basketball game, as soon as the game is over you talk about the '96 Bulls.

FFXIV has nothing left to discuss, so we are all going back to the MMO glory days and our glorified memories.

I was gonna post my confusion regarding all the XI talk, but at this point, what -is- the point? People gonna people. If the mods give a shit, so be it, lol.

[Stef]

From reddit it seems that 4Gamer has released some info on the Live Letter XX. It seems it will include:

FINAL FANTASY XIV: Heavensward - Opening Movie World Premiere
FINAL FANTASY XIV: Heavensward - Special ! List of Implementations
FINAL FANTASY XIV: Flames of Truth - Screening
FINAL FANTASY XIV: Heavensward - Developer Talk Session featuring Director Kazuyuki Ikumori from Visual Works (CGI).

Looks like they'll finally be releasing the T12 CGI cutscene "Flames of Truth" to the public.

[Spider-Dan]

What relevance does March have? With or without March Axes beat Scythe prior to 2 hand buff.

Axes have less ACC and less ATK, and the reduced attack delay from DW2 is offset by the 16% increase to hitrate from A+ skill. In other words, DW axe only beats SCY if SCY goes WILDLY over the acc cap.

If you're arguing after sushi release then Axe DRK isn't dropping any Haste for Acc because all the Limbus haste gear had Acc on it.

The point is that Homam SCY DRK would not be eating sushi at all; they'd be eating meat.

If you think that prior to 2 hand buff Scythe beats axes, especially when Ridill exists, then I don't know what to tell you.

Ridill is not an axe and has nothing to do with dual axes.

If you were really talking about Ridill this whole time then you should have said so. That's like me saying "RNG was always better off meleeing for TP instead of shooting" and then casually adding "oh I was talking about Kraken Club bruh".

[Buffy]

The 96 bulls benefited from expansion and a lack of talent in the league.

Although Jordan was on a mission. I think they were 38-3 at one point.

[Deadgye]

Pre-sushi you didn't even have Swift. Patroclus Helm, Speed Belt and Dusk were the only options I think. Maybe Blitz Ring too but nobody used them until like late ToAU.

Biast and Patroclus's Helm didn't exist until at least CoP. Haste setups were hard and expensive. Panther Mask, Speed Belt, Byakkos, Dusk Hands, Dusk Feet. 2(3) + 6 + 5 + 3(4) + 2(3) = 18(21). Dark Knight couldn't into Byakko's so that's -5 potential for him.

[Sho]

The 96 bulls benefited from expansion and a lack of talent in the league.

Although Jordan was on a mission. I think they were 38-3 at one point.

Doubtful, there was hella talent in the league. Magic did 60-22, SuperSonics did 64-18. Gary Payton existed, John Stockton existed. Anfernee Hardaway existed. David Robinson existed. There was talent at least in the upper echelon of the 95-96 year. Jordan was a definitely on a mission, however.

[Rocl]

omfg i hate all of you

[Spider-Dan]

Doubtful, there was hella talent in the league. Magic did 60-22, SuperSonics did 64-18. Gary Payton existed, John Stockton existed. Anfernee Hardaway existed. David Robinson existed. There was talent at least in the upper echelon of the 95-96 year. Jordan was a definitely on a mission, however.

Jordan only beat one championship team in the Finals, a washed-up Kareem-less Lakers. Every other team he played never won anything. Oh, and he never beat Bird in the playoffs.
Magic beat 3 teams with multiple titles (Sixers, Celtics, Pistons).

If you aren't just counting rings, Magic is the best player of all time (and if you are counting rings, it's Bill Russell). I stand by this.

rails officially destroyed

[Lucavi]

omfg i hate all of you

Boredom + nostalgia or whatever. YOU USED TO BE ABLE TO DO THINGS ABOUT THIS.

So useless nowadays.